6.9 How to Draw with Tango Conway

Transcript

Oh my God, me, my therapist are coming up to 10 years. We’re yeah, we’re we’re having our this is our 10 year anniversary. Like we’re on and off 10 years. Like we’re I’m not seeing her at the moment, but I’m I want to book an appointment and be like bring her flowers and be like cool, That’s so cool. Really into she’s. Getting the big promotion. Yeah, she’s getting promoted.

If I could, if I could afford to promote her, I’d be like please let’s just chit like chit chat. Yeah. Oh, just to like a friend. Yeah, she came to one of my openings one time, which I was. Super stoked about. Wow. We had this moment in the session that was like, I was talking about this solo show and I was like, you know, I’ve been talking about it for a while. And she was like, so is it like invite only?

And I was like, yeah, no, no, like anyone can come. And I was like, do you want to come? And she was like, yeah, I’d love to come. She got like, she like, prompted the invite out of me. And then she was like, I can’t make the opening. And then she, when she went, she sent me a text message to be like, thank you so much. Like, I loved this. And like, just really incredible feedback.

And it was like the best feedback I’ve ever gotten on anything ever. Yeah. Yeah. So my therapist was like, I would like to hear your music. And I’m like, wow. Like that’s very cool. He’s like, I think that would be very alike Instructor vault. I forget what word he used. Yeah, that would be helpful for the the the case. Like, yeah, nice shout out to Don. He’s my guy. It was his name.

Don, Don. Yeah, absolute. Don shout out to Rachel. Shout out Rachel. All right, Should we kick this thing off? Yes. Cool. OK, Welcome to Hung Up. My name is Matt. I’m Aiden. And today we’re joined by Tango Conway. Hi, thanks for having me. You’re so welcome. What did you do today?

I was just at work today actually. I work in a storage facility for White Rabbit Gallery. Oh, cool. So I was actually like hanging and photographing like a whole series of works. It’s like 16 metres long. That will go in the next show. So it was pretty cool. Cool. Yeah. Kind of exhausting and thought

to be like sitting down and chit chatting. Yeah. Is it funny working with like other people’s art to make like your money? Like that’s your bread and butter? Is it like? Yeah, yeah, that’s bread and butter. I mean, I actually have three jobs. Like that’s one of them not including, like, making art. So I feel like I’ve kind of

been, yeah, like doing that for as long as I’ve been. God, I’m like, I’ve actually had a bread and butter job since I was, like, 12. Like, whoa. But yeah, I do that for money. And then it pays the bills and then I make art. Yeah. And then I don’t make money on my art. And then I go back to my job and I make more money there.

Hell yeah, That’s what you gonna do. That’s the winning recipe. But yeah, yeah, yeah. But it’s like handling other people’s art, like while making money. I’m like sad sometimes ‘cause I’m like, I could just be doing the studio. Doing this like this could be really like beneficial to me but. That’s funny, I I definitely

feel that same like envy when I’m like working sort of for artists ‘cause I have done a lot of that sort of similar. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah. Like the, I don’t know who, well how you found it, but the, you know, like the thing that really kicked off like we were talking, you know, we kick around like ideas for guests. And the thing that really like started that off for us was your

snooze portraits. And like, we just love them. Like this is incredible. Do you want to just like intro them for people that don’t know? Yeah, yeah. Well, they, they kind of started basically what they are is that they’re portraits that I do of myself in the mirror every

morning as soon as I wake up. So not every morning, it’s a bit of a lie. But basically it’s like I wake up and the period of time that your snooze alarm is, which is, you know, about 9-10 minutes, I’ll pick up my sketchbook and start drawing myself in the mirror. And I’ve been doing that for since 2021, I think.

And it’s every time I set an alarm. So I kind of lied before. It’s not everyday, but it’s every time I set an alarm for myself, which is mainly when I’m working at my bread and butter jobs.

Yeah. And it’s like every time it happens, it’s it’s something different. And that’s what’s really sort of fun about it is that, you know, I’ll be really hungover one day. Oh, my God. Yeah. Here you go. Yeah. You’re like pulling it up. You’re like here, there are things. And then, yeah, just sort of like, I feel like I started it

as something just to keep me drawing when I think COVID lockdowns were a thing and I wasn’t really, like, productive, whatever. Yeah. And then it’s just become this practice that, like, still just connects me to drawing every single time I do it. And it’s a really nice way to start the day, yeah. Yeah, so, so you’re literally like, like first moment of

consciousness, You’re like, that’s when you’re yeah, so you’ve hit snooze and you’re like, now’s time. For yeah, yeah, yeah, it’s. A really interesting idea of doing it like before you’ve even had time to like where am I? Yeah, well, it’s like my eyes are still like adjusting and, and you know, like sometimes it’s like, sometimes it’s really

like invigorating. Like I’ll finish the portrait and I’m completely alert and woken up. And then other times I’m like doing it and it feels like, oh God, like how much more do I have? Like, is it like what? One minute longer? Like 3 minutes longer? Come on. Like and it’s a real struggle. Yeah, interesting.

Yeah. No, I think you like, I mean, you know, even in that state, like that’s usually when I would be like, what am I doing with my life? Like, you know, like. I’m like fuck. I’ve slept in for how long has it been like, you know, this my art career is just like blah, blah, blah. But you’ve really got like it’s amazing. You’re like really getting like the actual character of an eye

and like 3 strokes of the pencil and it’s like to be like so there’s, there’s a mirror I suppose set up. Or something good Feng shui. Apparently I heard about that, which is the one thing that I sort of regret about this entire project. Is that like it? It apparently is not very good for you to sleep with a mirror

facing you. But I haven’t died yet, so I’m OK. I feel OK. Yeah. It’s. Sort of counterbalanced by the beautiful artistic gesture. First thing in the yeah, maybe it’s like if you have bad yeah, bad vibes in your house, you just have to be like really artistic and like be producing that. I’m obsessed with like just you’re online in these.

Thank you. I guess, yeah, these drawings and I guess the whole presentation really struck me because it’s funny, sometimes we think about like, having to see work online. But I would. Love to obviously see them in person, but like, do you think of these as like a resolved like a work because it’s like the the way you’ve presented them like it’s really beautiful, succinct.

I might even just read the last sentence here. Each drawing represents 9 minutes of looking at the very beginning of each day. So just, I love the way you put it, but it’s like drawing sometimes considered like a precursor to a painting and you’re like a drawer, I suppose. Which I want to get. To. But then it’s like presenting the sketchbooks is kind of not

considered like a resolved work. It’s like that’s your process or. Yeah, it’s, it’s so interesting. Like I, I guess like even just in the way that you’re thinking about them as a presentation online. Like I actually have not really thought about the way that they appear as a like sort of coherent body of work online. Like I was just putting them there to sort of show the

process and just to document it and to put them somewhere like I’ve played around with sort of what it would feel like to have them as like a show or to I’ve applied a few of them to like art prizes, drawing prizes. And all my applications for all of these are successful, by the way.

And I’ve even had like, you know, like a curator who will remain nameless who came to my studio and I specifically asked them for advice on these and how to kind of resolve them or like where they could go in terms of a show. And they were like quite harsh to me in the way that they were

just like, I just don’t think that like this is a show like, and, and, and I guess, but also kind of reflected what you were saying, which is like the looking at them as a sketchbook is the presentation. Like, you know, like when she was flipping through them, like that was what she really responded to. And I kind of have just like

sort of picked it up and dropped it at various points just to be like, maybe it’s time to show them to the world. But I guess online is where they’re going to the world in an sort of wishing. Baggage there. It feels like climbing up a hill. Like I think as they are. Like I love that.

Like I love them as sketchbooks. Thank you. I would love to leaf through them. I would not want to see them on the wall. Yeah. And I’m sure they’d be great. There’s like about 13 of them now. And one of the like, exhibition applications was just having them on a shelf. And I would love to just put a bunch of chairs out and just like just take them and just have these moments with them. But also like, you know, like

I’ve got favourites and like, and I think that that’s part of the thing about like leafing through images and booklets is like, you resonate with some of them and not other others. And they do speak to that idea of like drawing not as a precursor, maybe as a precursor to my day, just to kind of connect me to that practice. But yeah, I, I do really feel

like they stand on their own and they’re strong pieces because I love them. Like, they’re such a sentimental part for me of my practice. So yeah, I appreciate you guys really liking them. Yeah. Thanks for putting them online. It’s so exciting. I’ve been drawing for like a year now so. It’s cool. That’s funny. Because my like long term old heads of the pod would know that

I was really like mostly really conceptual and not so interested in like materials or like anything classical. I’d be like, that’s fusty, that’s boring. Like how? Yeah, you. Learn to draw. But that’s like, I mean, like, that’s, that’s classic. That’s the classic misconception. Yeah, the classic, classic He.

Really. Was Mr. If it’s old, it’s bad.

I’m gonna fight you on this like he’s a. Change. I have a change that’s why. I’m really glad that I’m coming into this podcast at this point when you’re like, otherwise this would have gotten really feisty. Really been a really tense episode 2 to three years ago it would. Have been. It would have been. Nasty. So what? Makes you think you could. Fucking but it’s like funny, like drawing is communicating.

So like if you’re a conceptual artist and like I’m, you know, like not all of the time drawing for an outcome. Like sometimes it’s like I have to communicate to people that I’m working with, you know, if it’s at the art storage facility or wherever, just like, you know, how high do we want to hang this on a wall? What’s the space between, you know, this thing that we’re putting in here?

And like, you know, the door and, and, and drawing is just a way of being like, OK, really quickly. Like how can I describe this? And those are the drawings that I love the most, the ones that we don’t even like thinker drawings. Like I’ll rifle through all of the, like, notebooks and sketchbooks at work and find everyone’s like, little drawings that they’ve done to communicate

things. And they’re really abstract and weird and gorgeous. And they’re just like, you know, a couple of lines and they’re just like, what the fuck is that? But yeah, that’s like, that’s the stuff that’s beautiful. That’s the good stuff. Do you have like a definition? Do you care about a definition of? Drawing or no? I mean like, like in many ways, like I’ve subscribed to the fact

and like, I feel like people hate this and sometimes I hate this. So like, I’m like, I don’t know, I’m like a walking contradiction. I’m going to say this and I’m going to listen back to this episode. I’m really, Oh my God. But like drawing is kind of everything and it’s everywhere. And that sounds, you know, like a bit of a cop out. But like, you know, there’s ways of thinking about mark making

and like, really, if you boil it down, like drawing is mark making and you can make a mark on, you know, like a piece of paper in a traditional way. You can make a mark as a sound wave. Like you can make a mark that is placing something in a space. And like I think that like the more you sort of, yeah, try and unpick practices in like a

multidisciplinary, interdisciplinary kind of conceptual way. Like if you start to pull apart every discipline, it becomes drawing.

I’m sure that people who like are really hell bent in classicists about painting and ceramics and whatever are going to like. But I think yeah, like I think that it can be very like multi dimensional. Yeah, I mean, I, I, I’m happy to subscribe to that. Like I, I constantly, you know, when we get onto this level, Aiden and I talking like I find myself often painting myself

into the corner where I have to say that everything is art. Like every human. Gesture is art like gesture. You know, if it’s true, which like, because just because I think that to draw like, like it can be helpful to draw a lower bound to it. You know, because a lot of it, if you do look at it that way, is, is unhelpful art or

unintentional art or uncaring art, you know, like, so like, and like a vast majority of it will go unseen or uncommented upon. But like, yeah, I, I, I do think it’s very helpful for us to think about things in that very broad sense because it gives you like, it just gives you a lot more flexibility to like when you’re looking at just like a, a

pencil drawing on like a notepad. Like, you’ve got it really lets it. Like, it lets it sit among this big stack of like, human expression rather than like, we’re just thinking about drawings in particular, like just lead pencil drawings, you know, like, which is kind of an unhelpful way to like, leave it. Well, it gets rid of the hierarchy in a way. Like you’re kind of making it approachable.

And like so many times when I’m teaching drawing, like people are scared. People are like absolutely beside themselves with fear and just by like, I don’t know. And it’s so hard to like lower people’s anxiety about drawing or art making or whatever because it has this like mystique around it. Like, it has to be like, you

know, Michelangelo style drawing, but you know, it’s like, no, it doesn’t. Like, you know, and you’re probably drawing all the time, but you just don’t know it. And like, the more you start thinking about it, it’s like it’s everywhere. And yeah, so I think that like just just just dismantling that and just kind of like patting that down and being like, Oh no, it’s you’re actually just drawing by like sitting and having a conversation whether

you’re rather whether or not you want to see it that way. Yeah, yeah. That’s funny. Yeah, I think we agree. Although it does remind me of our joke. Like Matt and I will just point at something and it’s like this is the painting like this branded painting? No. I mean like this walk this. Is. Yeah, olive soup. This is my. Painting I mean everything can be a painting or drawing or doesn’t make it good. I mean that like it’s

groundbreaking or anything for sure. Like a. Lot of it’s not going to be groundbreaking. Like no. That fucking lunge was a bloody painting. But seriously, what? But what a beautiful way to think about the world, like what a beautiful way to like and romantic to be like everything’s I’m so everything is that and like being romantic is like the most is the biggest pleasure in

life. Of course. Yeah, so fun. Yeah, yeah. I was thinking the other day, Matt, you were telling me about like, who was it? It was like a grandma and my granddaughter and she was like putting something, pulling something out of her bag. And it looks like some of our favorite. Do you remember that? This is always when I like have this is always when I like haven’t left the house for a few days and then I like go for a

cycle on a fucking line bike to go somewhere and I’m like just everything. It’s like this insane, but I’ll tell the story. I try to remember where I was going to. Maybe it doesn’t matter, but I I got a line bike I was heading towards. Maybe it was going to that season gallery, like open day thing. And it was kind of a bit of a sort of rainy day. Like it had just kind of started

to. And there was this like, clearly like a granddaughter and her grandmother walking home from school. She this kid must have been like, yeah, like 6 or whatever and like, you know, nice uniform on. And then. But there was just this moment where like they, they stopped on the street. I’m just cycling through the

whatever the High Street in Erskineville is called. And yeah, she’s like, like her grandmother’s like reaching into her bag to, like, pick something up. And they both have this, like, concerned look on their face. And then they find it and it’s a hat. I’m like, what is she going to pull out like an umbrella or a? Jacket Perfect thing to pull out of a bag and be excited about, yeah? Exactly.

And they both in that moment, both addressing the bag together, they sort of looked up and there was this beautiful symmetry, like with 60 or 70 years in between them, but the same like, you know, they’re both short people and like, it’s just this beautiful family resemblance and like the. Rain. Just it. Was like, oh fuck, like you’re going to ride more. Often I love that. I love it when like your eyes

are open. Like, I don’t know, it’s like you’re like not just going through the world being like, like dawdling around. You’re really like seeing things. I love hearing you or like anywhere. I love when, like my friends, it’s like they’re just stuck in this like romantic little moment. I just want to like, live in that moment with them because that’s like, you know, when I go

and see a painting or read a poem, you know, it always comes from the feeling, all those little moments. Like that it’s like. The real thing. And when you’re connected to it, like you’re sharing that person’s like, feeling in that moment, you’re being like, oh, like I’m there with you. But yeah, being romantic about that. And just like about little things, like being romantic about a hat, those two are like

being romantic about a hat. I’m like, I love that. I love that. Yeah, like, because then like that’s all you ever need is the hat and the bag, like, you know? Like OK, I’m getting that on my tombstone. Like all you ever need is the hat and the bag, so you’re. Pretty good. Yeah. We’ve sort of wound up in like a really beautiful dwelling place.

And I would like to return to this, but you, you mentioned that you’re teaching drawing as well. Is that right? Like? Yeah, yeah. So. Who are your students? My students are at the moment, this is my two of three jobs that I have is at the National art school. I teach observational drawing to

1st year, second year, third year students. Cool. Yeah, so these people are quite keen to get mocks made. Yeah, yeah. Like I would say that like as a whole, like all of the math students are like really keen to learn how to kind of mark make and whether that kind of filters them from first year into like

whatever discipline that they make. Like that observational drawing kind of teaches them like the classical. It’s very traditional. It’s very like, you know, this is how you scale things and this is how you draw things in proportion and tone and kind of learn those basic fundamentals. I’d say that some of the students are not so keen. Like some of them like get out

of here. Like, I know what I’m doing and you have to right now you have to take. Those drawing units. Yeah, yeah. It’s, it’s compulsory in first year and from this year it’ll be discipline. Actually, they’re changing it from a core unit to a discipline. So you won’t. You won’t have to do it in second and third year. So it’s like, yeah, it’s, it’s

annoying. Hey, I, I think it’s annoying. Like I think it should be compulsory, like for people not even in art school. I don’t know. But like yeah, it’s interesting but you it is compulsory in first year which. At least, but still I. Still, Yeah, yeah, I. Like looking at the Creek and being ha you have to draw all. The way through I know Well,

like, well, like, that’s why I mean, I went there as a student and like, I was like, oh fuck yeah, we can draw every single like day. It’s so good. Yeah. But yeah, there’s definitely students who like drawing is not their thing and they would be really glad about then they can just kind of, you know, do their own thing and move on. Or they can, you know, do an elective and drawing if they really want to.

Yeah. But they and I also teach drawing to architecture students at Sydney University. Also cool. Which is a very new thing. Different crowd. That’s very different crowd. Yeah. And very different like style of drawing. There’s a lot of crossover actually, which I was surprised by in terms of like, you know,

the skills, the basic skills, but like they’re drawing for, you know, design into a brief and to ultimately, like, you know, get to a point where they’ll end up using CAD anyway. I don’t know. But it’s actually nice that they sort of teach that in first year architecture at UCID. That is cool. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, because I think a lot of

like, well, I follow a lot of like young architects and a lot of them like love that even once they know CAD, they’re like love just having the skill to draw. Yeah, such an amazing. I always kind of wished I had it. And then the one that I’m focusing on now is my handwriting because I had terrible head running for a long time. Don’t look at this notepad. This is, but I do I do do like lovely curly handwriting in my

free time. How do you practice? Do you do those sheets that have the like? Ghost yeah, I was actually looking for some of that yeah, I just. I I still remember cursive from my childhood. Yeah, but I just go over like, I just do example things and like fake journal entries and stories and stuff. I just write, you know, and it’s. Like, you just gotta do it

right, you. Gotta have to push your hand into the yeah, yeah. I mean, it’s it’s gotten a lot better. I think I’ve been doing it for three years now and it finally looks like a grown-ups handwriting, which was like. That’s a. Big thing for me, yeah, yeah. Can I just selfishly ask a question? I don’t know if you’ll have an answer to this, but like, I’m sort of teaching myself to draw,

I suppose. I did a couple lessons in a school in Hanoi, which was really great. It was a really classical school with the instructor walking around being like, no, that’s wrong. Like measuring. It I want to go to that school. That sounds fun, yeah. Shout out Art Tutor Hanoi, it’s a bunch of people from the local Fine Arts school that have started. Their own independent.

Thing. It’s very sweet. Very. Traditional. It sounds great. Yeah. Amazing fun, yeah. But yeah, is there anything like I’m kind of like cobbling together resources? Is there anything like you wish your students would do or like what is the like, what’s the thing that because I’m older so I can sort of like I want to practice my schedule, you know what I mean? Yeah, maybe. The Nas kids are pretty keen. I think like what I wish, I

think it’s like maybe two different questions, like what what I wish my students would do and what I would recommend for someone who’s just keen on drawing, you know, like outside of an institutional sort of thing, but is maybe different. I think that like if you’re just keen on drawing and want to get better, like just carry a sketchbook with you, like, oh,

like draw everyday. Like that’s kind of just just do it. Like even if it’s crap or you think it looks crap, it’s not actually like it’s just that it’s just about building like the literacy, I guess. And you’re not going to do that unless you’re doing it a lot. And then I guess, I mean, maybe it is the same answer for my students. I sent them homework and then no

of them, none of them do it. A few of them do it. But like I, I think for, for them, it’s like what I wish they would do is sort of see it as not a means to an end, like actually see the possibility in drawing that it is something that is like very powerful as yeah, and very broad in its

reach as a practice and in terms of what you can do and what you can see out of a drawing practice. You know, you do play with other sort of like elements as well as just making marks. Like, even though I know we all agreed earlier that like everything is marked, but what?

We like like turn around on that in this, like in this session, Yeah, like you, I did say that, yeah.

Guilty. Guilty, Your Honour. Proceeds Yeah. Objection sustained.

My client would like to take a short recess. No, I’m looking. I’m looking.

Like, Oh no, what are you going to pull up? I’m like we found out. Really buy the book. Yeah, but so then you you did some residency. So like Barcelona looked like fun. And I’m looking at this week a design in Paris, which we know a couple of people now who’ve done that, friends of the show. And yeah, like, you’ve got structures holding these things

up and like, you know, there’s, yes, you know, elements of sculpture and it looks like printmaking kind of concepts. As well. Yeah, yeah. Like those parts of my practice, like actually majored in sculpture. So that’s something that comes out just here and there actually more so recently than ever

before. But yeah, I, I guess like, I guess coming back to that, it’s like, you know, everything’s drawing. So it means that I’m free to, you know, look at paper mache or look at, you know, like timber construction or printmaking and just be like, yeah, it’s all drawing. Like I’ve got a drawing practice, but you know, and that really supports the drawing.

And it like, I think, you know, like when it comes to looking at how I put drawings in a space like that spatial that kind of puts the drawings in, you know, like a world. It’s not online, it’s not flat anymore. So for me, it’s like, I want to think about like how these drawings are relating to the people in the space and the

space itself. So yeah, each time it’s going to look a little bit different based on the materials at hand. On residencies, you kind of just like scrounge together whatever you can to like make it, make it work. But I think, you know, like when it’s here, like there’s actually an opportunity to really craft something that’s responsive.

And yeah, that’s when it comes into like installation even. Yeah, interesting. So there’s like these subcategories of drawing, it’s like drawings, like the big umbrella. And then there’s these little like droplets that come out of it that like kind of not only like dropping off of it. I don’t know, I’m like also doing his of hand movements. I’m sorry, this is not translating, but it like comes off of it.

But it also kind of like supports it from underneath as well. Yeah, yeah. Cool. And just also like asking the question like, how can I display my drawings not in a frame? Not that I’m against putting your drawings in a frame. I just think that like, sometimes I’m like, let the paper breathe. Yeah, yeah, it’s such an interesting like slice of the whole pie, like the the framing

thing, like, you know, I’ve got a lot of prints here, some of other people’s or like artworks and some of my own. And like every single one has a kind of different frame to it. And, you know, like, like I’ve got some sort of very traditional framing work that has been like, I had that done. But the. Yeah, it always feels like, like

whenever I see one of those, you know, I love it from the sort of archival sense of, you know, just to look after it. But I’m always like, I didn’t really consider that. I just, like, got it done as a default. And now I’m just stuck with this thing for 100 million years because it’ll last, because it’s so well made. It’s going to. Yeah. I wonder if I’d almost rather like be open to the elements a

bit. Or, you know, if I’d made the frame myself, maybe I could have had a sort of. Yeah, I don’t know, like a connection to how it looks or you know, like what it is next to on the wall or yeah, I guess like, Oh my God, the biggest question I get asked, like by everyone, artist friends, I don’t know, it’s like, where do I get my framing done? Oh my God, I don’t care.

Like just let them figure it out. Good. I. Don’t know. Yeah. Like if you’re not gonna do it. Like none of this stuff is framed like the. Last, yeah, no, yeah. Like, and when I do, well, actually maybe I’ll give a shout out to my framers, Fedoso Framing and Annandale and Hope Tree in Lura in the Blue Mountains. So yeah, that’s actually my answer. But those it’s like, or it’s like go buy a frame from IKEA

and do it yourself. Like it’s, it’s not that hard. Yeah, or make it yourself. You really it’s. Yeah, make yourself paper mache. Yeah. A student of mine who recently graduated, I bought a work of theirs like is 3D printed. Like they were 3D printing their frames. I was like, it’s fucking amazing. Like, so it’s just kind of like

the more you think about, like what you could do, there’s just like so many different styles. My favorite is just like hanging it with a bulldog clip. Like I’m just kind of like that’s that’s my go to when it comes to framing just off of like a bit of dowel or fishing line. I think in Barcelona I found like a fishing rod and was like, that’s cool. Yeah, the Barcelona pictures I

love as well. I love this. I love these. I mean, it’s not funny in like a mean way, but like, I love. You can be mean. You can go in. Just like the the photos of people with their portraits, like it made me smile and laugh together. Yeah. It’s like you’ve got this really serious traditional skill. And then like the the thing that came to mind.

I mean, they’re not caricatures, but like the idea of like a caricature. Artist Oh yeah, it’s. My sketch and here. Here you go. Like Oh my God, it was fully like that though. And like, I feel like that’s my like dream job is to like be someone who’s like set up with their drawing, like kit on the side of the sand in Paris or whatever.

And just like raw people and like just be out in the nice sunshine and like, I’m like, that sounds amazing. People love that they’re so happy when they get that done like that. That project was on Saint Geordie Day, which is like, you know, like the Spanish version of like Valentine’s Day. Okay, so we’re coming back to romance here. Like it was like, you know,

people come into the space, which was like the studio was also the gallery was also the shop front was also like, yeah. And it was. Amazing. Yeah, it’s St. front. So like people walk past and just like walk into your studio, like, yeah, you know. Yeah. And then I go, I’ll, I’ll draw you and then they sit down, I draw them. And yeah. And I did like a sort of carbon

copy like technique with that where I got to keep one. I hung it up in the gallery space and then they got to take one home with them. So it was essentially the the OG drawing like pencil to paper. And then there was the carbon copy underneath. And like that’s that was sort of like the transfer that they got to decide they reflect.

Yeah. So they decided whether to pick, take the copy or the original. Yeah, that’s cool. What do people tend to pick? Was there? Generally. Generally the original, I’m like, take that printmaking, like, I don’t know, yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s sort of just like I, yeah, I guess yeah. But yeah. And then there were some people that like, I didn’t really like

get their likeness and there was like, you can just keep up. Oh, like. Yeah, Can I say, can I shout myself out here? Like 6 months ago, I was at the Salisbury just one random night and I was sketching and I was like sketching the guy next to me, yeah, some random dude. And he like totally took, he’s like, can I have that?

I’m like. Of course you can. Really funny you can put on your CV now that you’re in a private collection in Sydney like True. We talk sometimes because Matt takes a lot of photos. Matt is a photographer, and I think sometimes it like it’s a very sweet gift to give to be able to give someone a photograph of themselves that

they like. Yeah, because it’s most people I don’t like that for. My face. Yeah, A. Beautiful gift and I’m really proud when I can take a portrait of a friend in a casual way and they like it or use it. Yeah, I. Wonder, I think maybe the illustration it can sort of go both ways right in. Terms of. How flattering. Or it’s so funny, like like even

illustration, like it feels like a bit of a dirty word like craft or I don’t know, it’s like, it’s like it’s still drawing like, but it’s, it maybe wasn’t made with the same intent as like something that, you know, like would then go, you know, like I’d submit to a prize or like put in a show. So it’s like there’s these different levels of like what you would call drawing or an illustration or something.

And. Or yeah, like a sketch or a doodle. That’s like my like least favorite word for drawing. I told my students off on like the very first lesson, like a couple of years ago, ‘cause there was a student who was talking about like her sketches. She was like, yeah, I doodle in my, like, you know, like on my, in my sketchbooks. And I was just like, can we just

like get it out of the way? Like no more doodles. Like no more. I don’t want, I don’t want any doodles. Like doodles, yes, in life drawing, but like not doodles, like just call them sketches. Yeah, drawings like, yeah, give it a, give it a, you know, like a bit of respect. It’s a shame our like our language, the English language is kind of unequipped to really

talk about drawing and mark making really elegantly. Like I would love to hear some other translations of the word drawing into other languages because it just seems like maybe it’s also a sort of what is it that’s designed and. Yeah, some. Yeah, it’s French. Yeah, there you go. Yeah, that’s just I see now that. Is a respectful.

That’s respectful. Yeah. Sounds good. Yeah. Probably a pretty good segue into the Paris, yeah. Yeah, I didn’t drop that to like segue. I just was like trying to riff off. I’m already doing the other one. I know. Yeah. I’m Googling royalty free. Record. Yeah, please tell us about how this residency. Well, basically it was like, I

think third time applying for it, maybe so classic, like third time the charm, but it was it’s offered Nas offer for residencies in their studio a year to current staff and a recent alumni. Cool. So as a current staff member, I applied and got it nice and that

was really cool. But it was like to my own for my own expense. Like it wasn’t like a funded like a Brett, like the Brett Wiley or the Art Gallery NSW one that they do as well. But yeah, basically it was just like super exciting to get the opportunity to go over for three

months and just draw. Like the application was very much like centred around accessing the Louvre’s print and drawing department and seeing particular works there and actually like seeing them face to face, which was a wild experience. Like I did it kind of in the first week that I was there and then I was like, oh, OK, well

what do I do now? Like, great. But yeah, it was, it was fantastic. Like I I the opportunity to sort of just work uninterrupted and enjoy life and just be somewhere not having to have three day jobs, bread and butter and just focus on that for three months

was like just, yeah, the best experience I think I’ve had ever. Yeah, that sounds incredible. Yeah. I’m, I’m sort of very much at the point where I’m like looking at residencies now for like maybe next year or whatever. Yeah, that one sounds like so much. Fun. Oh, do it apply? There’s there’s lots of different like I think Australian like when I was

there, there was like so many Australians there and like and there’s like 350 residents in total. Wow. Yeah, I reckon like, yeah, at least 10 of them. 200 Australians. Yeah, Yeah. That’s what it feels like when you go. Yeah, it does, It does. I had to get over really quickly, like like sort of, I don’t know, reservation about just hanging out with

Australians. And I was like, whatever, like let’s just do it. Fuck it. It’s only three bars. That’s cool. Yeah. Did you and did you enjoy the city itself? I did, yeah. I I really, really love Paris. I think that Parisians are also really friendly. Yes. I. Know like against like the common I. Agree with that.

I used to think that they weren’t, but this most recent time that I went to shout out Sam Hodge for introducing me to all these. Lovely. Oh my God, love Sam. Hodge Yeah. Guest of the show, former guest. Yeah. We had such a fun time and, like, met all these incredibly charming and lovely people who were like, very serious or interested in art. And it was like, wow, this is

not what not what I remember. You know, I was there as like a sort of long haired Yahoo in 2016 with my girlfriend at the time and we. Yeah, they would have hated you. They would have hated you. Then went to. Every pub we went to the wrong pub like teasing us to our face, but it was it was like it sounds like an insane like suck up to

Paris but it was my fault for being wrong place wrong time. But also like, I fucking thought I was being chill with my Paris, my French, but it was not. Chill. Yeah, Yeah. Yeah, All these other things that like contributed to that I’ve now let go of. And I’m like, love that city. So yeah, it’s a fun city. I tried to not like it. Right before I went, I was like,

I bet I’m not gonna like it. Yeah, cliche and. I’m. Like you’re really, I know, yeah, you’re but like you’re supposed to as the like antagonistic or contrarian guy that. You, I mean like what is amazing about it is that it is tacky and cliche like and I love that shit. Like it’s, it’s just like it, it is so chic and tacky and cliche

and it’s like all of those things at the same time. So true. And you just have to play by their rules. Like it’s like when I was there, I got I got bed bugs when I was there and that was like the worst experience like by far. But it wasn’t really the bed bugs that sucked. It was like going down and being like telling the city, like front office being like I

embarrassing. I don’t know how to like excuse and what I have a punes and she was just like I like I don’t ship at 1st and believe me, and then and I had to basically like really be like, no, I spent like the last two days turning my

entire studio upside down. I found them and they’re in the walls. They were living in the walls. And so I was just like, basically once she admitted that they were there, she goes, well, there’s a problem. And I was like, yes, like, what? What is that? She was like, it’s Friday afternoon. And I was like, oh, she’s like, nothing is gonna get done until

maybe Monday, maybe Monday. Monday is optimistic. And like, it took, it took like 2 weeks out of the residency for me. Like I was kind of on the run for two weeks, like staying at a a, you know, family friend’s place luckily. But yeah, it was like just this sort of thing. Like, OK, I can’t rush this process at all. Like you have no.

Influence on what? This gets done. It was kind of nice in the end, like I can look back on it and laugh now, but. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that’s cool. I, I, you see it’s always like this in Europe. It’s like, what do you mean you won’t stamp my ticket like blah, blah, blah. And it’s like they’re like, listen, like we don’t work like that. Like, because if you were working here, you wouldn’t work

want to work like that either. Like, and I don’t want to work stop. So I’m like, I can’t. And now when I go, I know like, listen, I’ve never had a bed bugs experience. It sounds fucking awful. But maybe if it’s more like the coffee is cold, I’d be like, well, like. Yeah, today, and I respect it. I’m like, don’t work hard. I don’t want you to work hard. Like I don’t want you to work above your what you’re getting

paid. Like no. Yeah, That is the thing that I loved in Vietnam. Like, some of the hospitality culture was like, yeah, like, you get a coffee and then they chill, like when we’re on our phones, like, and making jokes, yes. Like be on your phone. Like that’s so. Good hospo here and the boss would be like you can’t eat behind the bar. It’s like dude like Victorian

stuff just like no one cares like. Yeah, like people. Humanizes you and people like, you know, want to see be, you know, yes, in a workplace with a human. But yeah, sick of it. I think it’s gotten maybe a bit cooler. Maybe not. Yeah. When we’re the boss, we’ll let all of our employees look at their phone, be really slack on Friday afternoon.

Absolutely nap. Whenever you want a long running joke that we’ll ever actually be in this position to hire. To have employees on the podcast, but if we ever do, they’re going. To be happy. Oh, they’re going to be so happy. They’ll yeah. We need a new real monkey. I’ve been real monkey all day making Instagram reels and it’s a fun job. I like being the real monkey,

but we need one of those. Yeah, reels, clips, short form content, whatever. You guys are enjoying like. Very serious business. Like real.

We’ve gotten crazy with it. And Aiden had to stop me. He had to like, grasp my hand and pull it away from the computer. I’m like, let’s make it sillier and funny. Do you have to like jump onto those like audios that like boost your viewership? It’s like something really popular. It’s like a viral TikTok song or something like that. That’s. A good idea? Yeah. Hey, look, I’ll invoice you

later, but you should really do that, yeah. We would love to have a marketing. I mean, it’s, it’s fun like we, we enjoy working together, so it works well. And that’s the classic like when you’re doing things and being creative, it’s like you’re kind of every single role in that business. Like you’re doing it all. You’re doing your own marketing, like, you know, reels business. Yeah, yeah.

Or I don’t know. I’m like trying to literally me trying to name like one job. Literally. Literally. Are you still doing the Skelton and Conway? Well, that was the thing you did. Right. Oh my God. Yeah, like. It’s an old thing, but it’s like you explored that. Mill and I, we, we pick that up like when, when the time comes,

you know, like whenever we’re never, ever gonna call it quits in the way that it’s just like so open-ended that like last year we did a meat ruffle at tiles. Yeah. And that was just sort of like, yeah, it’s just we were, we were sharing a studio at the time and

I, we thought of this idea to like do a meat raffle, but everything that was being auctioned off was art and it was tiles, like they’re an old butcher. It was for their fundraiser. We end up raising like $1800 for apan. And it was just like, yeah, amazing. But to answer your question, we

are so busy with everything else that unfortunately the Skelton and Conway train is like, you know, she’s she’s on like a short retirement at the moment. Mel, if you’re listening, I will obviously do anything anytime I’m open, I’m open.

But it really, it’s really just finding the time, you know? Yeah. And. Like the whole partnership and working with your friends stuff like it’s very beautiful. Like I really enjoy it. It’s a really sweet part of it can be a very sweet. Yeah, yeah. We’re lucky that we belong well enough to be able to. It is lucky.

But sometimes it’s like almost like living together, like you can get along well, but you can’t work together. Or I mean, this is nice because I have run a business with a friend and that’s very different when it’s like actually your livelihood. It’s kind of nice to do an art project because it’s like rent getting paid at the it’s not so critical. Yes, even though. Sometimes we act like it is like the artistic integrity of the

episode title. Ohh But like then you have like, but that’s The thing is like, you know, you can kind of get into the nitty gritty, but then you can also like boost each other up and be like, yeah, this is the best fucking thing that we’ve ever done ever. And like, people are gonna live. It’s like it is. Great. It really is great because I think that’s something that I’m, like, contending with now. I’m trying to, like, like, really start to draw and do watercolor a bit more seriously.

Yeah. It’s like how much time you spent, like in your isolation, Like, you know, it’s just you and the page and you and. You and my marks. You and your marks. Yeah, yeah. So I do get that. Like I was like, fuck, sometimes you’d just be so fun to have someone to bounce off of. I guess you just share a studio if you’re sharing a. Studio, Yeah. Some of that, but.

The bouncing off like, I mean, that’s just like love that, love it when you’re just like most of the time actually Mill and I like we think of our ideas. We’re just at the pub like we’re just like, you know, having beers awesome. And we’re just like La La La La la. And then we’re like, wait, that’s a good idea like that. Write that wrong down. Let’s let’s work on that. And I think that like, you know, then you get into this kind of

flow and you’re like just in this like world. It feels very like delusional in some ways, like where you’re just like, this is the best and most important thing that I can be pouring my time and money into now. And you’ve got your buddy there with you and you’re just doing it and it feels good and like, who cares what the, like outcome

is? Like it just actually feels amazing to be like connecting with someone on a creative level like that. And yeah. Yeah, it’s, it’s really special. I was talking with someone recently about this, where it’s like with musicians, you know, like when I was younger playing in bands, I used to think that you had to get the four coolest, baddest motherfuckers in your

neighborhood, then make a band. That would be so cool. That people. Couldn’t help but but like it turns out, and this was really good advice that someone gave me like that like if you get along really well with this person, like it doesn’t actually matter if they suck at playing the drums like that is going to be way harder to find than a good drummer. And when it gets up to like the

level of a like a group for like a band, like there’s so many interconnections that you just have to just stick with whenever it works socially. Like that’s just what you got to stick with because it’s just impossible to find bands that work well like in that social. Yeah, exactly. It’s like you have so many levels of like, does it work with time? Does it work with like everyone

gelling well socially? And then also does it work in just like you’ll want to do the same thing, yes. And maybe you don’t all want to do the same thing, but there’s some kind of like Ave. that you can take like, yeah. Yeah, and don’t even get me started. I’m just watching rehearsal studios when everyone. ‘S free that yeah, that sounds the hardest. Job in the world that. Sounds horrible. Yeah, like I can’t imagine doing it with more than one other

person, like. Oh my. God stinks. Yeah, anything is stable. Anything. Any group maybe that will be your undoing like don’t add don’t don’t get any staff on board because like you know, like be careful. Maybe what you’ve got is magical and perfect. It ruins. A beautiful formula. Yeah, I always. Think though, like any like relationship, any like Co working or even like friendship

or romantic relationship. Like I kind of changed the goal posts. Like people are like, oh, this like relationship hasn’t worked out whether any kind of relationship if it like ends, but just they’re like, I feel like there’s an intrinsically like fleeting nature to any, you know what I mean? Like once like in terms of getting all of those things in order, it’s like, no, it’s like

we released 2 records. Like that’s amazing. We did it for two years. Like that’s a great success. Take the win. Like, you know, like just feel like this is cool. We could even do this in the first place. Samsara. Absolutely. That’s a problem, Let’s call it. I love that. Yeah. Yeah. So cool.

So what was I going to say? I had a question but it’s gone. Well, I’ll jump in with my question, which is I believe that. So this residency in Paris, we can come back to you, Matt then LED into your current show. Yeah, yeah, The current show. Oh my God, Yeah.

It was basically like, I think when I was in Paris, I was like loving making all of this stuff. And when I had it, like pulled all of the stuff together, all most of the stuff for the open studio, I was like, I wanna like bring this all home and show this to people when I get back. And, you know, it kind of then

like I followed a process of like for months just reaching out to people and like just seeing where I could put it. And then it ended up sort of landing in Shiva’s gallery in Brunswick in Melbourne, which some very good friends of mine run. Yeah. Emily and Shafak. And it was just like, it just

felt right. Like we, I was just chatting with Emily and she put a call out like to sort of a group, a group of us being like, God, if you know anyone that’s keen for this open call for shivers. And I was like, me, I’m keen like, let’s, let’s do it. And she was like, oh, you don’t have to do the open call. Like, maybe just like we’ll put on a show before we like, you know, the programming for the

open call starts. And I was like, great. And basically it was then it then the insecurity started like I was like, yeah. And then then it was like, Oh my God. Like actually all of these drawings of really specific to Paris, like all of the imagery in them and the, you know, feelings that I was getting while making them and looking at them.

I was like, this was very specific to that moment in time. And it just feels weird, like putting it in a gallery in Melbourne. I was like Melbourne as well. Like I was like, I’m like, you know, I live in Sydney, I’m not there. So it was this sort of thing of being like, how do I, you know, like make these drawings? And predominantly they were just, I just want to focus on

the six large drawings that I made that were like double sided sort of monoprint drawings using charcoal and graphite.

And yeah, I guess that was like when I kind of came to think about it and just be like, look, I’m going to make these like specific for the space. And then it comes back to like installation, how can I make these works like speak to this specific space? And so I made these stands to kind of pull them off the walls and have them in the middle of

the space. And so you can see both sides of them as well, like the process and how they were made. Yeah, I love the idea of double sided art works. I’m sort of trying to, I haven’t really done any research on this, but I’m trying to figure out how you could do that with a photo, like print it twice or something like but they don’t make photo paper double sided. You oh, that’s like transparent

or. Yeah. If it’s transparent, you can do that. Yeah. Yeah, that’s true. It’s a good way of looking at it, yeah. Yeah, I guess because like double sided, I don’t know, it’s like you have the mirror image. So like, it’s really odd because when I was drawing them, I was dealing with what you see on the back of the drawing. So like, you know, I lifted them off this like charcoal bed and then was like, they just look

really different. It’s like when you take a selfie and then your camera like automatically flips it and you’re like, that was so strange. But it’s sort of like a nice practice and just being like, oh, like that’s, you know, like that. It doesn’t. It looks strange and odd, but then you just kind of like settle into it. Seeing the reverse. Of yeah, the reverse. It is such a pleasure of mine to be able to have some kind of

process like that reverse, to be able to see your art from another like perspective. Sometimes it’s just like the distance of a year has gone by. Yeah, you’re. Like, whoa, oh, now I get why I did that or whatever. Yeah, it’s such AI really relish that when I can find easy ways of of doing that. That’s.

Interesting or it’s like a classic like teaching hack. And if you look like getting into drawing, it’s like it’s like turn it upside down. Like does it make sense Or you know, it’s like it’s like look at it differently or take a photo of it and flip it in a mirror image and see what it looks like. Cool. And sometimes compositionally, you can like see if there’s

holes or spaces that need to kind of like, yeah, be resolved when you do that. So it’s just kind of like taking that recognition out of it and be like, oh, OK, cool. That actually like is what I was trying to remember what I wanted to ask you. You’re teaching like people who I think like, it sounds like they’re quite keen, but maybe

more of the architecture students, there must be some like total beginners there as well. Yeah, yeah. How? Do you teach beginners who maybe even are like a bit self-conscious about what they’re putting out there? Yeah, how do you go? About that tango. It’s interesting, like I think that everyone’s self-conscious, like beginners and people who are really good at drawing are

probably the most self-conscious and they have a lot that they’re bringing in emotionally into the space, which like beginners, like they’re kind of the most privileged ones in the room, I think. And that’s what I tell them as well. So you know, like to kind of boost their confidence too. But I do believe it. Like I think that if you’re going from Ground Zero and

you’re at like the bare basics of being like, how do I look at this thing and make it look like that thing on my paper? Like that’s a really fresh perspective. If you’re looking at something and you’re like, yeah, I know how to draw this. Like, and you’re bringing all of these like, kind of, you know, like, like, I guess baggage is

probably a bad word for it, but like you’re bringing baggage into the room. It’s like you got to get rid of that. And actually beginners are really good at getting rid of that because their expectations are really low of themselves. And that’s not a bad thing. Like that’s you should not expect that your drawings are going to be good. And beginners are really good at doing that. Like they’re already like, my

drawings are shit. I’m going to check this out at the end of class. But are you saying you don’t even have to be explicit and say that to them like they are? They’re already coming in being. Like they’re already coming in. Yeah. And I, I think that that’s refreshing for me. Like I like that attitude of it can be challenging if it’s like, you know, ends up being sort of

passive or you know, like resistant, but usually if someones there and they’re like willing to draw and they have low expectations of their drawing, fantastic. Like that’s like that’s the best. And I, and I think that that’s when you’re really open to learning and open to like the drawing becoming its own thing.

Like it really gives the drawing agency like, yeah, you’re not like, it’s, it’s like being like a parent. It’s like, yeah, I mean, I’m not a parent, but like I imagine that like a lot of parents, like mum, dad, if you’re listening, I like projecting onto their children. It’s like if you’re, if you’re there like, you know, just being like, and not to say don’t have, I feel like I’m getting

confused, like I don’t have low expectations for your children, but don’t have any expectations. Like just just allow, allow the drawing. I’m talking about drawings as if they’re children now. I’m like, didn’t realise I felt this way about drawing on my babies.

Yeah, I think just like, yeah, there. I don’t have to say that sometimes I do. And I think that, you know, give or take, depending on student to student either like crushes them or like it, you know, like really like helps them just like step into the classroom. Yeah, I can feel if I was doing a drawing class, I’d be very receptive to the like, the conceptual thing of like this

thing about like, you know, I’m a total beginner and like I, I don’t even know how to think of what we’re doing here today. You know, like, I think that sounds really helpful. I mean, for me anyway. Yeah, yeah. Like I hope it is. I mean, like, I’ve definitely made students cry, or maybe not me, but like I’ve had students cry in class and. And that just shows me that like there is such a high level of like, frustration or something.

Yeah. And like fear and like, there’s so much like there’s so much like, oh. And I’m like guys like lower the stakes. Literally just paper and like. Cry some more Nas students or Sydney Uni. Architects, if my Sydney uni students have cried, I haven’t seen it. So I’m gonna say Nas. Like I think that Nas students

bless them and like I’ve like, and I’m really like, I’m not calling them out ‘cause I was a crying Nas student when I was there. Like it’s, it’s when it’s the students that expect like the most of themselves and actually like first year at NASA, like to anyone who’s going to start or is there at the moment, it’s like ego death.

It’s like you come in and you are crushed. Like you are just like, I am not hot shit. Like I actually need to strip it all back and start again. Like such a cool process to go through it. Is really cool it’s scary, but it’s very cool and it and it’s really I feel very privileged to see it in students like I feel

very lucky to like kind of be there for them when that happens, whether or not they feel lucky that I’m there when that happens or not like, you know, because it’s beautiful. It’s like you’re watching someone like just fully breakdown over a drawing of like an A life model and you’re like

or like a vase or a block or something and you’re like this is so emotional like much more than just technical skill. It’s like it’s, it’s people in a space feeling lots and lots and lots of different emotions. And it’s really, yeah, I think that’s when I’m, like, enjoying my job the most is when I’m kind of not making students cry, but like is when I’m like kind of

connecting on that level and seeing that change happen in people. That’s the best. Yeah, I was reading a thing about teaching and learning styles a couple days ago and they were breaking learners into like a few different categories, like surface learners who struggle the most, deep learners and then like achievers. And the achievers, like they do really well, but it’s mostly

just because they really want to get good Marks and they will get good marks. But like, and then the deep learners, like I was a teacher and I had some students, the students that really did well, they just like loved the subject they were obsessed with like learning the thing like close to like intrinsic. Learning and. Then we had like the surfers, learners who would never have

made it to that point of like quote, UN quote, like ego death because they won’t let themselves. So they won’t like, they’re too afraid of like seeming bad or being bad that they actually can’t confront themselves on the page. Or in my case the coding editor which is. Which? Is it’s the same sort of thing to confront like, oh, I don’t

understand this, I don’t know this like I’m stupid or whatever it. Is and it’s because like learning is a skill as well. Like I think that, you know, it’s like you. Yeah, I think that’s true of any learning, whether you know, it’s drawing or what did you say coding. And that’s like, yeah, it’s like, if you’re open to learning, like that’s, that’s

the skill, like, and if you can master that, you can do anything like, and you know, it’s, it’s sort of funny. Like the surface learners, like, I always wonder what is happening, like, or what they’re getting out of it or why they’re there. And that’s that, that’s up to them. You know, like, but and and and just not everyone’s gonna. Yeah, I don’t get one there.

Yeah, maybe it’s not at the time. Like fuck, you’re young when you’re in first year. Oh, come round out of school like. I was, I was 17. I was 17 as well. I was like, there’s no. Way I could have made the most of this. Like I was terrified. I had to get friends to buy me beers at the dollar bar after after school. I had to like hide in a corner and then be like please buy me a scooter please please.

That’s not so cool. Yeah. The statute of limitations has passed on that in case of. OK. Yeah, sorry, redact, redact any further. Questioning. Wow, the court. The court is back in session,

back on, always. A deposition. I took that joke and I ran with it. So I love drawing, but I wouldn’t have, I wouldn’t have like said, I won’t say this now, but they were more on the doodle end of the spectrum, you know? But no, you can say doodle I’ll like. That Well no, but I do wanna I

wanna give them the you know I like that giving it the time of day of like no it’s a real drawing but yeah like just I was thinking like you know it’s the amount of like dogs that I’ve drawn where like it just looks like so wrong because I just have never crossed that threshold of like really being able to like give it that liveliness like you I get it

luckily sometimes like I draw a Candlestick that you liked like you saw the. Other day. Like, like, but yeah, it’s like. I want to see these drawings. I’m like they sound, they sound great. Let’s see here. I’m like weird dog drawings. That sounds like incredible, Yeah. Yeah, I was, I was gonna, I was looking. Well, Matt finds his drawing. There’s this cartoonist and

teacher called Lynda Barry and I was reading some of her stuff. It’s so beautiful. But she has a a book on rat making comics and she’s illustrated it all with her students drawings. So she she’s kept all of their first drawings for like decades. And decades and she’s like. Seven years later, I remember this student and she’s almost

like, she’s like, she’s heartbroken. She’s like they’ll hate their little scratchy first drawings and she’ll leave them behind. Like all the students. Will leave them behind and she’ll always like take them. Out of the bed and they’ll keep them. It happens all the time, but they’re really good, yeah. They have this freshness. Yeah. It’s a really beautiful book. She has this quote. I want to read it. You know, most people quit when they’re young, when they realise they can’t draw a nose or

sometimes it’s hands a nose. What I love about comics is the ability to leap over this problem of drawing in a quote UN quote realistic style. True. And she goes on and she has just yeah, it’s a it’s a really wonderful book. And that yeah, kind of got me, gave me the confidence to paint because she’s like everyday do like a self-portrait in like a cartoon style.

Don’t ever feel like your skills are stopping you from like practice your technical skills, but don’t get stuck. And I think that’s why I was kind of allergic to technical stuff. I was like. Oh, I can’t make anything fun or funny or beautiful until I’ve got. It’s been 10 years. Yeah. But if you never, and that’s such like that’s like, that’s a long time that you’ve got to

walk through. It’s like, but you, all you have to do is like find the door in like, and you, you gotta open that door and like, you know, if it’s, if it’s drawing like, you know, in an unskillful way, like do if it’s drawing dogs or drawing a Candlestick, it’s like, it’s like, ah, yeah. Let’s do the dogs live on air break my dogs. Oh wow. This was a good one, but. That was not the that’s. Beautiful.

Are you kidding me? These are great. Thanks. But these ones I. Think this is really. Funny, it looks more like a cave. Painting these are fantastic and these little dislike these tiny little dashes is the same dog but in like a reduced. Kind of trying to just start by like just doing the, what’s the fewest possible. Yeah. Because I thought about, I was thinking, yeah, like this. I was like, it’s got like a

nose. Yeah, like 4 feet, a tail. Like if it’s a boy dog, it’s got a penis and an anus. I was like how could I represent that with like 7? Stroke things. I love that. Well, that’s also like, I mean, that’s line economy. Like that’s like that’s a skill like you’re, you’re literally just like I’m naturally doing like a skill that like is teachable, you know, just be like, how do you do this in the

little amount of well as possible? So funny, I feel, yeah. Is this a Dalmatian? Yes. Hell yeah, they’re like one of my favourite dogs. Ever. And did you know that Because I wrote Dalmatian? I think I did say that, but also then I was like, is that the Dalmatian? Was that the Dalmatian? Yeah, that’s definitely more the Dalmatian that I saw. You were talking about a. Dalmatian.

You’re like I need a Dalmatian. I’m like, yes, I can. I can read. Anyone knows a Dalmatian owner? Can you please that would like to be in a photograph? Can you please message the show Instagram where there’s a? Guy in Chippendale that owns like 3 dalmatians and he walks around all the time. He. Didn’t even have to do the show. Run it back, locked him, lock him in. And he loves people taking

photos of them. So you should just hang around Chippendale. He’s there. Cool. Yeah, yeah. Great. I think that’s all we have time for you guys. Tango, it’s been a pleasure talking to you about drawing. Life and romance, I loved it. Thanks for having me on the show. It’s. Been really fun, thank you so much for coming. Cool. Thank you so much for listening. Please give us a follow and a

review on Spotify or whatever you listen to

Show notes

We caught up with Tango for one of our trademarked wide ranging discussions, this time including. Scared students, her brilliant Snooze Portraits, being friends with your therapist, 1st year ego death, bedbugs in Paris and much, much more.