6.6 Weeping in the Apple Store with Sophie Penkethman-Young

Transcript

Sam boy, that’s funny. We were just talking about James Gurney’s hallowed colour and light and our guest. I know that. Spoke of dinosaurs. Yeah, we were literally just talking about dinosaurs as I got. Your and I never talk about dinosaurs. Aidens not the kind of guy that would bring up dinosaurs. I’m only just learning about

like history and dinosaurs and the physical world. Yeah, totally. Recently.

Like, literally. Like, literally yeah. I’ve been talking about ancient history and ancient history podcast like just at him for like like a long time now. And I’ve been like, like finally like got through to me. Like listen to this thing about ancient Egypt the other day. I was like you. You fucking what? The Minoans. That’s what lured me in.

That’s what got me in. I was like, wow, like matriarchal society that disappeared without a trace. Now I can do some. Yeah. And but like that’s that’s your gateway. That was my gateway and. Now you’re like, but I haven’t. Found anything like I started watching Rome and I was like the TV show yeah, but I didn’t it didn’t quite stick with me so yeah, I saw a spoon that was really cool I saw this ancient

Egyptian spoon with like a bird and the like bolt. What would you call what’s the like end of a spoon that you eat the soup of the spoon, the dish of the spoon. It was like connected to the was the. The neck of this, the neck I don’t know, makes sense. Yeah, it was like a hand. Oh. Amazing. Neck of the spoon to the bowl it

was. Like a hand holding. A little. It was like a hand holding a bowl. Oh, that’s gorgeous. I was like, I sent it straight to Matt. I was like, Matt, why have I never seen that? Why don’t we make spoons like this? Anymore, I know. I mean, I feel like modernism has a lot to answer for because everything used to be so beautiful and now everything’s so functional and I’m like, where’s the where’s? The God. Yes. Welcome back to Hunger.

My name’s Matt. I’m Aiden. And today we have on our sofa Sophie. I don’t know. How do you say your last? Name Pengothman Young. I actually did know how to say it, but I didn’t want to nailed it. Welcome, Sophie. Thank you so much for having me. Thrilled to be here. Yeah. The it’s true that modernism like kind of had this funny like, but I, I like, I consider myself a modernist now.

Like I know that we live in like a postmodern sort of world, but like all of my work looks like modernism like you. Your work is postmodern. Like, oh. But I went through a huge modernism because I went to a new School of Art where they’re like kind of teach modernism. That’s funny. And so you’ve got to like go through modernism to get out to post modernism.

Yeah, it was so Bauhaus. It was Bauhaus off Canberra. That’s very right. They were like craft hand of the artist, furniture is art, all of that. I loved it. Cool. Yeah, it sounds like a. That sounds like fun. I love the like hands on stuff. Yeah. Where is everyone right now? I would say I rejected modernism for my entire life. Yeah.

And now at the ripe old age of 30, yeah, I’m coming back to like, black and white photography and a little bit of modernism. I started painting. Yeah. So I’m kind of back in a in a sense. I feel like I’m re finding my love of like art nouveau. I’m like oh so intricate, so

over the top. Like Art nouveau is like a diva and I love like a diva. So I’ve been rediscovering that, but in like my very, in my like very postmodern digital practice, I’m like, yeah, and and I went through like a real and I mean, people can see it like they were like Greek fresco

stage and but I’m like, but they’re 3D prints. So experimental. Look at me go that’s. Great. Yeah, and and you like you literally did learn coding, right? Yes, yeah, and talk. Us through that Aiden is a programmer. Yeah, well, I’m like a selfie.

I don’t know if you studied computer science. No, I didn’t. Yeah, I’m like I’m self-taught. Yeah, I was reading that essay. It was. Or was it something in on your website? They’re like Neopets tarot PC learning to code. Like, Oh my God, kind of that. Yeah. I’m like online, yeah, I’m like the most I’m. I’m a millennial vibe coder. Yeah. In that we we learn how to vibe code because we wanted our

Myspaces to look really pretty. Yeah. And so like I, you know, I’m like HTMLCSSA little bit of Python only when it’s useful for other things that I’m doing cool and like that kind of thing. I my friend of mine is like learning Rust and I’m like, I think I’m gonna learn Rust

because I’m so I’m so easily like LED. I’m like, maybe I’ll learn that today should. I learn that too. Yeah, which is why I learned like a little bit of Python, because my other friend was like, Python’s great. And it is very useful if you’re using something like Touchdesigner, which, or like Cinema 40. But yeah, so I, but I code in

service to like my other projects, whereas I have friends who code as a craft and I’m incredibly envious of them and their ability. Yeah. What, what, what languages? What’s your tech? Stack. Horrifying. I haven’t worked in like professional as software

engineering in like 3 years so I really have a stack, but I was teaching JavaScript for the last couple of years Golf King which was fun and I’m a part of this funny like cultish online secret network of extreme algorithm docs. Yeah. 50 of us and we spend like a week thinking about a single

line of code, but that’s all abstract. Like, I’m not so interested in working as a coder, but I like the way that it feels to think about Oh yeah, in service of something. I love, I love the way that like once you have, I think this is like a lot of like digital practice, which is like, you have to learn something to

understand the rules of the world that you’re playing in. And then once you’re like, understand the rules of the world, you’re like, oh, it’s node based editing software and 3D and code. It’s all just like, you have to learn this language. And then once you understand the rules, you could start to be able to make things.

But then eventually your mind just melds with the rules. And I think that’s when you become fluent in a language. Absolutely. As somebody who’s awful at speaking other languages, but I imagine it’s similar, Yes. And I think that’s what’s really beautiful about this kind of practice because like also there are all these other people who

are learning with you and like because technology keeps like progressing at this rapid rate. It’s like you are in this like cohort of people like learning this new thing. And then another new thing comes along and it’s like, it just feels very live. Yeah, yeah, cool. Yeah, that’s that’s so well put. Like, that is basically one of the main criticisms that I level at, like, purely postmodern work

is that, like, if you don’t have any rules at all to play with, it just kind of all starts to look and sound the same. Yeah. You know, like, we were joking about performance art earlier. Who was saying it? Like, you know, if I see one more person, like, crawl across the gallery floor, you know, like, because there isn’t very many, like, rules to play with it.

It’s just this complete open back like unbounded. Box, yes and no, right, because and then I think this was off the mic, so we’ll keep the person name. Redacted Name Redacted. But I think like unfortunately for performance and a lot of contemporary since the institutionalizing of this, they serve developed their own languages. Like there is a language of

performance unfortunately. But if you take a step back and look at performance in the theatre, you know, if you consider acting performance, you think of like dance or a whole range of interesting performance outside of like people that studied performance, then it has all this beauty and open, you know what I mean? But I think it’s also that thing

where I, yeah, no, I’m going to, I’m going to say I, I, me, Sophie, who has worked at like 1000 institutions professionally. Look at somebody crawling across the gallery for floor and I’m like, oh, I have seen this, this

references this. Perhaps it’s a little bit derivative. Oh, it’s a good version of this. Like, you know, like that’s what’s going through my mind. But like baby Sophie or like person who is just going to the gallery on a hinge date or like grandparent who has gone to see old master with toddler, Like people outside of this, like

they see this intervention and it makes the space feel more live and like they have like walked into something unexpected and that they wouldn’t normally like be seeing. And, and I think that there is this thing when you come from like, it’s like experimental practice, which I guess is sort

of like a lot of my cohort where you can see the like big institution version of something and you’re just like, it was better at first draft. It was more raw, like we did it better 10 years ago or whatever. And I’m trying to like and, and I think that is true, but I’m trying to like rid myself of

that a little bit because I do think that there is there is value to that work also being supported by these big institutions. And a lot of the artists who are doing the like slow crawling work at the like at a GNSW, like get that money and get those resources to make like the more

like to back their more experimental practice that they may be showing it like live works. And I think that’s like it’s, I’m trying to be less jaded is what I’m saying. Yeah. That’s a cool take. Like you’re saying basically that like, like there are ways you can like do both like, you know, your own satisfying, like weird little art practice, but

also like leverage it into something that actually like can get you like really into like experimental art rather than like playing again this this tune that we know like. Yeah. Or like maybe maybe we know the tune so well that it’s kind of like we look at it and it’s like we’re seeing a cover band, but it’s.

Like a jazz standard. Yeah, it’s like a jazz standard. But other people who like, I’m not as familiar with it might be like, wow, this is like, crazy. And like, my grandmother, who, like, loves an oil painting, would see that and be like, I saw this insane thing at the gallery. She was climbing up the walls. You would love it. And I would be like, I’ve seen this 12 times but like go off.

That’s like there’s some like famous dude artist from the 70s. He was like living in the gallery up in the corner. Yeah. Was that guy like Matt something? He was, yeah. He had a little platform in the corner of the gallery, 70s or 80s. So there’s like of there’s like the guy that got Chris Byrd and I was like the guy that got like shot in the gallery like. Yeah, and they did a RIP off of

it. In the corner and no one could see him like. And they did a RIP off of it on Sex in the City, Did they? Yes, they did. The original sex. The original Sex in the City there’s like. They love their crazy art. In that, Oh my God, they love to do like a art fit. It’s like we’re very we’re in the city, there’s some art.

She was an amazing art scene, yeah. The guy from Suits, I won’t even get into that. He’s the most crazy episode. He’s an artist and he’s just poor. I couldn’t believe that. Actually, yeah. Fuck, I love. I love the way that contemporary art is positioned in, like, pop culture. Yeah. Because it’s always like, the worst people you’ve ever heard

of going to see the worst art you’ve ever seen. And you’re like, how’s this like? And then it’s people when you’re like, oh, yeah. Like I work in the art. So like, oh, I know the art. I’m so sorry. I mean. Yeah, there’s something to it. There’s like a shred of truth there. Gossip Girl. Yeah, if your dad runs the gallery. The quite sweet dad, I think. But it’s like a very mean like.

Like a roller. Door. Yeah, yeah. It’s like a Brooklyn fucking yeah. Yeah, a Brooklyn warehouse now worth $7 billion. Yeah, he would always make his kids in that show, like, the best breakfast. And they do like the High School Musical thing of like, take a bite and like, see your dad. And it’s like fucking three hours worth. Of I am always, I am so jealous

of like TV teenagers breakfast. I think about it especially ‘cause like I have a kid now and I think about it all the time. I’m like, what were these? These parents are meant to be working full time. How are they doing it all? Yeah. 4:00 AM We get the put the pancakes going. But yes. Yeah, yeah. It’s some nourished like Smith bullshit right there. Ohh. Gosh, we’ve been looking at your

website. Amazing website. Oh my God, The best in the game. Yeah. I I rebuild it every year or so. I’m like, due for another one. It’s like a very good way. Yeah. To Yeah, yeah. That’s. Awesome because I think it’s a really nice way to reconnect with your practice, remind yourself that you’ve done a couple of things, which is important yes and also it’s like

a nice it’s like a nice little like design challenge and so like I move platforms every couple of years as well to keep myself on my toes so. You built your. Website, right. Yeah, yeah, yes. Looks great. I I built there was a brief period where I’d built everybody’s website and now and now that has like I was a website guy it’s like it’s sort

of passed so I did you had Gus on your show. Yes. And I built Gus his website for his 30th birthday as a game. But in general, I am no longer at the website. I don’t DMV. Yeah, that’s so. Yeah, we were saying it’s like having a Ute It’s like, hey, I’m actually moving. Next weekend, Yeah, yeah, that’s cool.

I love. I especially love one of the things just from. It’s like the first time I’ve sort of seen your work and your presence online. The tone of the writing is so it’s like exactly what I It’s very refreshing, put it that way. Yeah, I. Just want to be funny. I’d like, I also like, I don’t know, I, I, I understand why

people with like serious, sincere practices have serious insincere writing about it totally. But I do not have a particularly serious or sincere practice, so like I may as well have some fun with it. Yes, yeah, absolutely. I mean, it doesn’t seem insincere though, like ‘cause you’re you are going to great

lengths. Yes. No, that’s true. It’s very intentional. But like, for the love of the game. You know, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Like it’s like, it’s like committing to a bit and it’s like I’ve got method and now it’s my whole life. Yeah, yeah. But I mean, yeah, exactly. The whole we keep getting caught up with the medium is the message. And like, I feel like once the tone of your, like, you know, art speaks, stuff gets to a

certain point for me. I just can’t help but, like, start to glaze over. Yeah. Even if what you’re saying is beautiful and heartfelt and true. Whereas like and we’ll speak about this essay. By Emma O’Neill Yeah, Psychic fur for it’s. Yeah, which is really, which was really cool. And Emma is such a great writer. Yeah, and that was so well written and I was like, you know, it pulls me into something that I don’t think I.

Yeah, yeah, we don’t often encounter that. Like I think because like when you’re especially if you like study this stuff, like you’re sort of shown the the the usual way of doing it, which is this like very theory grounded, like serious document that accompanies the show. But yeah, like it’s just funny that like even today people are like, and we experimented with the text accompanying the show

and everyone’s like, that was amazing. You didn’t just do the same thing that everyone else does. Like how did you come up with that? But so cool, the like foreground, like really cool writing. And like I think you said, you’re like, you like said what your piece is about in this show and you’re like, I’m serious. Yeah. Which is an amazing like sentence to add to the end. Like I’m not joking. Yes.

This is this is not the joke, but the joke is also everything. Yes, yeah. But I mean and then this is called robot slash slash dog. Oh yeah, yeah. Oh, yes. That was like, that work is so funny because my friend Tisha, who runs Verge Gallery, she was like, I want you to make it work about my thesis and my master’s

thesis. And I was like, go off like, yeah, OK. And then she sent me her thesis and it was like kind of looking at machine learning and like programming and like in relation to art. And it was. And I was like, this is an incredible thesis and I cannot make a work about like, I don’t,

I like, I don’t even know. Like, it’s like, you’ve made the work. I can’t. And then I was like, OK, how the fuck am I allowed to swear? Oh, yeah, yeah. How the fuck am I going to make a work? Also, like, this was like just pre like Chat GPTS, like that big update that scared everyone a few years ago. Yeah. And I was like, how the fuck am I going to make a work about AI

Because so much has been written about AI. Little did I know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There was more coming. And then I just was like, just started thinking about like dogs. And then I was like, dogs are a really good allegory ‘cause they work for the state, but they’re in the home and we programmed them. They’re not real animals. And then I was like, yeah, and I love an allegory.

And I’m like, oh, this could be kind of funny. Like this is like a good bit. And then I was like, and a robot dog is like the, the like, it’s like the this is not a pipe of a dog. You know, it’s like that meme where it’s like the dinosaur and then the like dinosaur bites and then the plastic dinosaurs and how it becomes like more and more removed from the thing itself.

Ohh yes. Yes. Yes. Anyway, who? You nearly lost me there, but I. Got you back I I was like, is this even a meme? I could see it, but I could have made it up when. You’re describing a meme. Yeah, a very scary place. And I have so many just like rambling around in my head. I’m like, oh, this doesn’t even

exist, but yeah. And so then I made that work and that was like, I was like, I did it. I made a funny work about AII Am the King and then. First funny work. There’s really good timing, ‘cause then like AI really scared everyone and people keep

curating it into. Things, yes. It’s everywhere like in the in the MCA these like huge plastered like AI artworks. In the question mark, they’re like, yeah, they’re all trying to work it. Out yeah there’s a big question mark yeah I. I feel like we saw I was, I was there recently with Matt and it was like, oh, OK, like we’re doing that now.

OK, like whatever, I guess. Yeah, it does feel like a big strong question mark like. Nobody like, and they’re like, I talk about this a lot with like my colleagues at work and like my friends who kind of also at the intersection of art and technology. And I’m like, yeah, it’s kind of like any tool there is like there’s good work, there’s

mostly bad work. It’s about like what you put in is what you get out if you’re using like a discrete model and stuff. Like there’s so many, there’s so many ways about it. But I feel like at the moment every art institution, like I think that I think the public program at the current MCA like thing is really good.

But most of the art institutions and even like the stuff that they’ve done downstairs, they’re like AI question mark. What is it? What is it they’re really? Clamouring for. Something they’re really trying to like find meaning, but I think because the institutions, there are very few people inside the institutions that have like

a full grip on the technology itself. And that is because the institutions have in general

separated out their digital teams from their curatorial teams. So their digital teams are now in marketing, which means that there is like an internal divide on how like digital is seen. So the curators that are curating like, you know, like hard edged abstraction one day are being asked to curate AI show. And then the person with the greatest literacy in the topic

is like a 25 year old marketing assistant. And so that’s why so many of these shows are like so strange in me. But flat footed. Yeah. Yeah. It’s interesting because like people compare it to like the printing press a lot, which I think is a bit unfair because like, you know, when they started making books, they were

like heavily, heavily regulated and incredibly expensive and rare things. Whereas like we live in like an extremely liberal time. Like it’s not it’s it’s more like aliens giving you a technology. Like then like, I don’t know, the invention of writing or something like all those, all those things were so mediated and like sort of. Slow to evolve.

So yeah, it’s, it’s a funny time to be like getting really interested in like, what are the odd implications of it? Like I think it’ll be much more interesting in like a decade probably. Oh yeah, it’s going to be way easier to look back on because it’s like such a disruptive time as well. And also because we’re living in like a Poly crisis. So you can’t separate like AI

right now from like the military industrial complex and climate change and, and like techno feudalism. And it’s like there is, it’s such a great argument for like small discrete models in medical AI or like, I don’t know if it’s announced yet, so I won’t say which. There is an archiving institution that is building a

model to go through their entire archive so that you will be able to search certain words and see when they appear incredible for research. It’s like really especially like in films and things like imagine that’s going to like that is going to like change research, stuff like that. Like chef’s kiss and not that bad on the environment kind of

fine. Yeah yeah, like these large unruly, like models that kind of ate the Internet and keep like throwing up like putting glue on pizza because somebody made a joke on Reddit like that. And like, all the images are built from porn. Like, that’s a shit show. Yes. And that and the bottom is going

to fall out of a lot of those because like, essentially, like, it’s all on this, like Silicon Valley, like tech capital. And so they’re pumping money into it, but the users aren’t there and there isn’t a model where they’re gonna make money on it. So sorry, this is just like my rat. No, please. No, please, rat, I’d love to hear it. Yeah, I’ve been through my whole, I’m in my like extremely

like shut my ears about AI now because I went obviously be like coding at the time and teaching coding, teaching coding to like people that really, really wanted like the, you know, post COVID tech boom. They’re like, you know, when you could learn a little bit of programming and get a job. And so it was a really difficult time because, yeah, we’re in a

prison. We didn’t have access to AI. And then, you know, the guys would be seeing like newspaper headlines, like Atlassian fires everyone for AI like, and you know what I mean? So it was really complicated navigation of like, no, like it’s still, you still need to think. So yeah, it was challenging, but then the more that I used it, at least in a programming context

for me anyway, the more garbage it seemed to be in terms of like, I was like, you need to slow down. Like even like I was always telling my students or telling myself like, you don’t like, you don’t even need a computer for like, right? Like if it’s this is the. Best thing that So Aiden’s been teaching like inmates.

Yeah, this is. Incredible. But it was like yeah code but like the. Best thing that I heard you say about it was like these guys have to go and work on these problems without a computer now. Yeah, after the class is over, you don’t get to use the computer. Which is the best way to learn how? To code a teacher who teaches in this thing that he’s like tried to cultivate like, what would be the ideal? And I said the guys don’t have

like computers or AI. He’s like, that’s better yeah. Because I really think I was like, guys, like, yeah, if you have a 8 hours to solve a problem, like honestly, I swear to God, like 7 hours of it should just be you thinking and like maybe talking to the person next to you and then thinking some more and then going for a walk and then thinking some more. And then and only then should you even think about a computer, let alone AI.

But I see all these like young juniors, it’s like, well, first I’ll ask AI. And it’s just this, it’s not even from an output perspective, but it’s such a horrible like state of mind. Like I find like thinking through a problem by like making these logical steps through your own, like whether you’re making art or writing a poem or solving

an algorithm, it’s this really beautiful human feeling. And I think it will always lead to deeper. And I’m sure you can use AI to leverage and like, what’s the word like amplify certain insights. But if you start with AI, from what I saw from teaching and thinking myself, it always LED people into just these horrible messy nests of confusion. Well, you can’t learn the syntax

for the structure. You can’t track back on your own mistakes. And it’s really hard. Like when it breaks, it breaks. It’s like, yeah. And it’s also like the code comes out like 7 different people wrote it. Like it’s like so messy. 10 different versions of the library. It’s like it’s yeah, it’s very Yeah, I bet yeah. And then it was like, I felt this really weird feeling of

like. But everything I read says the AI is like you know and no one has to code anymore and all these can no one’s coding but. No, but it’s a lie. Working for me like. Is it a lie like? No, no, no, it’s a lie. Marketing VC bullshit. Yeah, essentially, like they they fired a bunch of people because they said that AI would like fix it. And now they’re like hiring a bunch of people to fix the like,

fucked like AI like slot code. But you know what it’s really good for This is like a tip that my friend gave me. Yeah. And I want to like share this one because I think this is gorgeous. Yeah. I am in the process of trying to decouple with Adobe and it’s and it. Take me. Tell me more. Whoa. Because I came like I came up in

the Adobe, like I, I learned Photoshop when I was 12, like I. Yeah, me too. I’ve been on it my whole life. My whole life, yeah, I want to decouple because it’s bullshit, essentially, yeah. But the first one that I need to decouple from is Cinema 4D, which is Maxim, which was bought by Adobe because Adobe bought it jacked up the prices and then

like gutting the software and it’s like a beautiful and I love it. It sucks so much it’s. Heartbreaking. Yeah. Why would they go to the effort of gutting the software? Because they wanna like essentially merge it into their existing like stats. So, yeah, they essentially, so I’m doing this, Yeah. And the first one that I am

getting rid of is Cinema 4D because it’s the one that wants to charge me $4000 a year and my Photoshopped student card that I’ve been getting a student discount for for the last five years you made. In Adobe Photoshop you made in. Is no longer working because they got 2 factor authentication

on being a university student. Dammit it’s it’s awful. Anyway, so I’m decoupling and I’m moving on to Blender, which I do like ethically. Agree with more because it is like open source and all this. Yeah, they’re like free. Oh, I did like a blue source. Yeah, that’s cool. It’s that makes sense ‘cause we had it in the classroom, we were trying to run it on like old Intel maths.

One of one of my students got obsessed with it. He did like the there’s a really famous blended doughnut. Tutorial. Oh my God, I did. The doughnut tutorial. Every day it’s just him and the doughnut like. Yeah, every day. Oh the doughnut tutorials so hard. I did like the ugliest mug in the doughnut tutorial by for I was like I don’t know how this works. Oh my God, I would love some more anyway.

That is, yeah, that’s a heroic ambition. I like it. So how I’m using AI Yeah, essentially. And this was this was not my idea. This was my friend Jared’s idea. Shout out Jared. Great idea. I uploaded the like this whole like Blender PDF manual to

Claude and I was like Claude I am moving from Cinema 4D to blender and then I started being like in blend in cinema 4 DI do this. How would I do this in Blender? Nice and Claude would be like, you would do this like this. Yeah, 100%. And it’s actually been so good because I because like doing I did like the donut tutorial.

I did a bunch of beginner tutorials, but the way I use the software is so neat and in service of my practice got it. I am not like a professional renderer yes, it’s kind of like my coding. It’s like very much like in service of what I’m going to make. Purpose is that you. Yeah. And so anyway, it’s been like game changing and I was like, OK, I talk a little shit about a lot of models and like, but then

sometimes they use them for different works And this one was particularly good. So cool. If anyone needs a like could workflow tip, that one was really great. No, I feel like I agree with that. Like I’ve found that to be the case too, when you’re already pretty knowledgeable about something. Yes. It was like, I already know all these, this programming language really well. Yeah.

Like, you know, I know. JavaScript really well for that stuff. What’s the equivalent in Python? Yeah, that was very quick. That’s that’s great, but. The part, The thing is, it’s like people that don’t know anything and they’re trying to learn, it’s like. It’s a really powerful like technical resource. Like I use it as like a manual all the time. I’m like, I mean, Davinci Resolve all the time for work

stuff. And it’s like, how do I do this one specific like colour space transform thing? And it’s like, oh, you just do this like, you know, I kind of half remembered it and it was like you sort of were 80% of the way there. And it’s like so helpful. It’s a great tech support thing. It is good. That’s. Where the compliments will end. Yeah. I think that’s kind of where my compliments went as well. But it has been really like

useful for that kind of thing. That’s good. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s funny. It’s it’s yeah. We’ll see where it goes. I just keep, well, as we’re talking about this, I keep thinking, like, what will it sound? You know, when people were talking about like, you know, microwaves in the 1930s or whatever, they’re like, it’s going to change the face of society. You know, I’m like, what is like, what are we going to be laughing about in 20 years? About like this conversation.

Tonight I think we will laugh at like the AI is going to end art and journalism and all of that. I think like, obviously it’s going to be super disruptive and it’s going to be really hard on a lot of people who like are in those industries, but it’s just, it just is not, it’s not it. And it’s already like coming

short on so many different like angles. So those are like so hard to generate. Like it’s it’s great at like doing things like animating a still image of a person so it blinks. Do you know how? Hard it is to generate like multiple images without glitches like it is and do minute

changes. The sort of changes that clients love, like can you move back to the left slightly? Yeah, and put it on the right, these two of them. Yeah, I know. It’s so funny. Yeah, that’s a really good point. Really good point. The people that I actually like, especially in client work, it’s just, I mean, it’s funny. And like, brands will do little experiments like I think Zara

has and Coca-Cola has, and everyone just fucking hates it. They’re like. Don’t the Super Bowl ads where everyone just booed the whole time? Oh my gosh. I didn’t see that that. Sounds good. Oh, that’s interesting. Yeah, Yeah. Yeah, the AI slop ads did really badly and people were really mad about it. And then it was negative sentiment towards anything with AI at the end of it. Like audiences were even like,

we hate it all. Yeah, Yeah, That’s sick. Nice. So one thing like that comes up in this essay that I wanted to ask you about was like, you know, it kind of touches on your like, relationship to devices. You know, I also grew up with like dial up Internet and like the line in this is that like there’s a birth chart hung near

the PC. But like, I love the idea of like just asking you about your relationship with devices in particular like. Oh, yeah. So I am the worst at personifying my devices. And like, like at the moment, my current love affair is with my 3D printer. I bought it so that I could own

the means of production and also because it was really expensive to get somebody else to 3D print for me. So I figured I’d buy it and I would learn. And that was so great. Like And then it was like $1400. I bought it with my tax return 10 out of 10. It’s been great. Awesome. I love it. It is so cute. We are best friends. I give it a little pat and it’s.

Crazy. It reminds me so much of like, good boy. Yeah. And you know, when, like, you hear your computer working hard and the fan comes on and it’s like, there’s a lot of that. Like I’m watching it like print. And I’m like, oh, this print is really long and you’re doing like a really good job. I, like give a little pat and like, I’d like I can leave

overnight printing, but I don’t like to because I’m like visible. Yeah, like, yeah, while you’re working. Like I think, I think I’m going to make a work about this actually about my like trying to have ethical labour practices with my 3D printer. But yeah. Unionized. You’re a printer. Well, a little.

Bit, yeah. From the top, but yes I and it’s yeah and it’s the same with all of them like I adore my laptop when I bought, but it was the most expensive thing I had ever bought and I like I was like already emotional because like a friend that like whose work I loved Saab had like recently

passed away and I was going to buy this laptop because I had to do a work, but also because I was trying to like collate all of sabs works for their like funeral and my laptop kept dying and I was like I’m just gonna go and I’m gonna spend the money. I just had got this like payout ‘cause I was leaving my it was like chaos yeah so I went into the apple shop. I got the last like M one chip, I think in like Australia or one

of them, like there was a shortage because of the war in the Ukraine. And anyway, they gave it to me and Apple employees just started like clapping because obviously apples are cult. Yes. And they’re like, congratulations when you’re very different. And I just started a weekend. God. And I was.

They’re like, we didn’t, guys. That’s so funny. And then I got home and I got like trashed. I had like 6 fears. So I was setting it up like to make it like beautiful. I like yeah it’s like all of all of my devices. I like so attached. OK. Well, you would be after that.

Yeah, that reminds me of like those old, like the first iPhone when people can’t. Be lighting up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s a really beautiful scene. Yeah, that’s amazing. It’s amazing. They’re like it’s. It worked actually. It’s yeah, yeah. They’re like apples. Like our corporate, our corporate culture has like finally made somebody weep and. The the guys in the boardroom

are like if we just get one. Person and weep in the apple. Shop and they’re watching me on the CCTV being like congratulations guys, we did. Breaking up they all. Go home to their pun as it happened it finally. Happened after all these. We did it. That’s so funny. I’m so proud of you. That is really. That is amazing.

Yeah, that’s you gotta write a little essay, but that’s. Beautiful. I like, I actually don’t think I’ve ever really like talked about it that like it was such a like unhinged moment. And but it also like, I guess I like did not come from like, like a lot of like means growing

up. But my mum had a computer and we understood how like precious and important it was to her writing practice. And then like my younger brother would use it to like make beats on Fruity Loops. And it was like, it was like at the centre of the household and everyone would use it for something creative. And we all like loved the computer.

And I ever since I got like my personal kind of technology, I felt really similarly. And I’m like very like don’t touch my screen. Like I get really. And my husband is existing entirely on my tech hand me downs now that one has not bought like a piece of technology since we got together. It’s a. Good coupling. Yeah. That’s nice, Yeah.

You don’t want too many shiny new you. Don’t want too technology in the. House and also it doesn’t make me feel bad when I need to upgrade from my practice because I was like your old Pro Tools crack will still work on this. Yeah it just can’t do 3D anymore. That’s awesome. That’s really beautiful. So wait, actually just like really specific question, what about Photoshop?

Like how are you gonna replace Photoshop? OK. This is no, no, this is like this is long term. So Cinema 4D is first and then I’m going to, it’s gonna be really hard because like Photoshop and After Effects have both been like so key.

Yeah, I think that I can move a bit of what I was doing in After Effects into Blender and then I can move a bit of it into, I think I’m going to use like GIMP for like a lot of the basic Photoshop stuff that I was doing. And then people have been saying like Houdini, Da Vinci Resolve

for like other like kind of video stuff.

My hope is that there are like a few like web-based things. There’s like the new thing that can for bringing out that apparently should be able to replace enough of Illustrator and that other part of Photoshop to get me across the line. But I’m really like, I’m banking on that. But it’s kind of, it’s very like one step at a time, yeah, ‘cause

I’m so, I’m so embroiled in like the Adobe thing. Yeah. And it’s like so evil and there’s. So much money for like so much. Not really that much. No back from them. Yeah, OK, I’m glad I asked. I but like I will have to look into. I will message you as I find like more. Please. Yeah, yeah, yeah. ‘Cause I’m like saving every

Instagram reel that’s like things to use instead of Adobe. And I’m like safe, safe, safe, safe, safe, safe. Yeah, yeah, I, yeah. The, the like, I’ve had some really like moving experiences like downloading software before where it’s like you find some like piece of like really niche like thing for like, I don’t know, for, I don’t know, like batch rotating a whole bunch of images in a folder or something.

And like someone took the time not only to make it and then upload it and host it for free, but also to make it look really beautiful and useful. Yes. And I’m like, I’ve been using this fucking free app for like 6 years now for some weird part. And I’m like, wow. They make them beautiful. They usually make them useful, but not. Beautiful. I get a lot of. Beautiful apps. I was using Calibre the other day. I was like, fuck some Calibre. Is that the thing that you use

to put? It’s like a book on your ebook. Open source. Ebook. Yeah, the thing from that is not a pretty piece. It’s. A so ugly but like as a software engineer, I was like, fuck, you have considered like every file type and I was like, this works like it took a little bit of like fucking around, but we like beat Amazon’s DRM through this

crazy app and I was like, it ain’t pretty. You didn’t have a designer, but I’ve known about this app for like a decade plus and it’s been like, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah. Robust and still the number one.

That’s so beautiful. That’s. So cool. I had to like back up Kindle. Yeah, It was like a Kindle backup. It was cool. I was very proud. But yeah, it did kind of require a software engineers, like a gentle hand of this engineer. It’s good stuff. Yeah, I just recently, like, I had a Kindle and then it was in

like a box for years because I didn’t want to pay Amazon any more money for books. I was like, this is gross. And then I found online that you can jailbreak them now so you can just, like, get books. And I was like, I had so much fun doing that process. That was saying, yeah, I was so proud of my, like, custom Wallpapers. Yeah. Yeah. You know the screensaver. Oh, that’s so good.

Yeah, I like a fist. I got Francis, my kid, this thing called the Yoto and it’s like this like physical media player for like little kids. And it’s like this box and they have cards and they put them in and it’s like like a little tiny screen with pixelated icons that like this is a song or track you’re listening to. And I was like, this is great

physical media and on a screens and then you can get like Yoto cards with nothing on them. They’re like 2 bucks each or whatever. And then I started like, ripping music from the Internet to make her mix tape cool. And I felt like I was like, I’m so fucking back. It’s like, yeah, we’re. Back. We’re yeah. We’re yeah, look at yeah.

And that’s. Really cool right now, yeah. Oh my God the the yoto is just so beautiful. It’s so cute. It’s so. Cute. That’s awesome. Yeah, she’s got the little one with the dials. Yeah. We’re at a really good time with this stuff. Like everyone’s talking about their CD player. I got this great CD player that’s like got the anti skip so you can take it for a walk.

It’s got Bluetooth ohh, which is really nice thing is it was like 100 bucks. It’s see through and it was really nice. Like we my friend had a bunch of like, you know, CDs from like local, you know, their friends and stuff that they’d never listened to and they didn’t have ACD player. And I was like, cool, we can just listen to this. Oh, and it has Bluetooth so we can use the fucking UE boom. And like it’s super

frictionless. I love it. And I feel like we are in a really good because I’ve been like and mad as well, but especially me. I guess I’ve been on like my Luddite thing for a long time. Like when I was like in uni, there was a time where I had no phone, no computer. Last year I did like a not a year, but maybe like seven months, no smartphone. I’ve done it back and forth. I’ve done it a bunch of times.

So I guess I’ve been like watching the Luddite space for a long time and in the last few years it like some things blew up in some certain ways, like those kids in Dime Square or whatever, whoever. August Lam is probably my favorite. She’s so great. But yeah, I feel really hopeful about where it is. It’s like reach this like nice point.

It’s like one of those like tech adoption. It’s like the early adopters. It’s like reaching this point where there is this sort of sweet middle ground and there’s no longer. It feels like less like warring faction. It felt like early days, it was like, if I have a dumb phone, I’m calling you like a piece of shit and then you’ve got to call me. It’s like being a vegan. It’s like I’m judging you and

now you hate me. And but it feels like now it’s like, no, it’s actually completely OK if you have Spotify. And sometimes you want to use like, you know, ACD player, like I’m not going to kill you. So I’m really happy with where it’s at now. It feels good, Yeah. I think also, like I have some friends who in kind of high profile positions that just got

to the point where they were like, OK, this is they would buy like an old shitty iPhone so they could like text and like do whatever and do their Internet banking if they needed to. And they were like, OK, like this is my everyday phone. And then I have this other phone that is like shiny. Yeah for social media. Yeah. Then this is my work phone. Yeah, exactly.

I’m. Doing that exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And like like the real work phone thing because I think that that used to be a thing. And then and then we’d like Fold pulled everything into one device so you’re always on and always working, yes. It’s insane to be like texting your mum and then on the same thing is like your work emails. Yeah, and like.

You mentioned all the atrocities and horrors of the of the. Entire world, yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And you’re seamlessly like unconsciously or semi consciously going between without even. Yeah, like you’re laying. In I know, Yeah, you’re laying in your the peaceful in the of your bed. Yes, screaming. So funny screaming.

Yeah. How have we accepted this? But yeah, a lot of those devices like the Light Phone was meant to be a 2 phone device, which people I think don’t realize it was meant to be a like you have this. Phone in the drawer. Exactly. It’s like, okay, I’m going to hang out with Matt, we’re going to the pub. I don’t need, you know, everything like I’ll leave it at home, which, you know, it’s

cool. Yeah, I am interested to see how it goes with like so like the dumb phone thing, but also there’s like an anti wallet thing like people stop having wallets and I’m like how’s everybody getting around for that? Their car? We’re just. Gonna go right back to having wallets. Yeah. Are we having wallets again? Yeah. And then I’m like a wallet’s back.

A wallet’s cool again, I had the. Thinnest. I actually bought a wallet inside. It’s the dumbest wallet. It’s the thinnest wallet you’ve ever seen. It only holds 2 cars, bank card and my driver’s license. OK, that’s kind of that’s kind of chic. Yeah. I. Found a right cheek but I would pull it out and it was so small that it was like people would it. Looks like it’s sort of funny. Card to like it belongs it like

goes in. It’s like this modular wallet. Yeah, it’s like an insert. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, a bigger wallet it can make it has a mothership but I just bought the the card bit but I lost it because they’re fucking small. Well, I that’s what I was going to say. I was going to say I would lose that. That would be gone. I had to put my phone on a strap because I kept breaking it and losing it.

Like everything has to be attached to me. I have had the same wallet since I was about 17 years old. I’m so impressed it’s not. Crazy, but it doesn’t feel like something that I’ve like, you know, it’s just kind of just been, I don’t know. I don’t know how I did this. Nice. Thanks. I’ll take that. It is impressive. It’s a part. Of yeah, take that.

This is like, that’s very rare. You are a rare and special butterfly. I’m really impressed. It kind of looks like a middle-aged or yeah, middle-aged like sort of coal worker. Now it’s got like cracks. Yeah, it’s seen things. Some shit, Yeah. Yeah. It seemed like all different versions of me that like are not immediately apparent to people that I meet these days. It’s funny.

Funny to have that stuff hanging around for. That’s how I feel about my hairdresser who I’ve been seeing for like 10 years. I’m like, she’s seen me, she’s seen hi, she’s seen the low shine on Nina, extra silky. You’ve seen things from me. My hairdresser just moved back to Japan. Oh. So I’m like, brutal. Yeah, yeah. I’m so sorry. But it’s OK, I’m chasing.

I’ve got some investigations that I’m following up on, so I think I’m going to sort that out.

We saw on your Instagram that you just got your pee plates. Yes. Congratulations. Thank you. Yeah, Aiden, how did that feel? Did that feel really exciting? That was it. It was it. Thank you so much for asking. OK, so driving’s my new personality. Awful. How good is driving? Awful. Time to get a license with this

new crazy. SO yes I grew up in Canberra and I did not get a license, which is very rare for people that grow up in Canberra. And it was because I had older boyfriends and dyslexia and undiagnosed ADHD and I was like

and tried to drive a manual, like did 1 manual lesson because my mom had a manual car and I was like, this is not for me. Yeah. And then I when I had Francis, I was like, okay, this is getting harder. And then similarly to my mother before me, I kind of realized

that I needed to get a license when my husband was like away, I think, for his band. And I worked out that it was going to take two buses to get her to swimming lessons. And I was like, OK, 22 buses by myself, totally fine.

But like she was like 18 months and I was like, there are this. And I did it. And then I was like, I think I need to get my OK, that was. The car just sitting there in the drive, yeah. I could see it was like staring me down. It’s like if you just ride a little bit harder. And so then I got an amazing driving instructor who specializes in working with

people who have anxiety. She taught an 80 year old woman how to drive. She was so good. Maria. I will. Only have like crazy guys she like tell me about Oh my God how bad their wife is and how expensive Sydney is as fucked. Up. Gosh, sorry, that’s me. That’s OK. Yeah, there’s a total market for oh. Gee, thank you.

There’s a complete market for like the other type of of driving instructor, which is like not a completely crazy old guy who’s like talking at you I. Kind of feel like all businesses, there’s a business market for like it’s any normal thing, but it’s for like sensitive artists, like for

like, for example, or like people with anxiety. Yeah, You know what? I mean, Oh my God, she was. Internal like the packet experience of like any of these things is just diabolical. Like I was like, I fucking I hate you like. I am gonna give you Marias details. She would never do that. Oh my God, she’s amazing. I love her so much.

She sounds great and then like and she she’s like Greek. And so I now know like all about like the Greek diaspora and. How to drive in Greece? And and how to drive in Greece. But no, it was just amazing. And it took me longer than it would have if I was younger because my brain is like hard and solid and not good at learning anymore.

And I’m appalling at spatial things and I’m jumpy and, but I got my license in Sydney and it is the thing that I am probably proudest of. And and now every time I drive anywhere, I’m like getting that little bit further, that little bit more confident. And I can drive with Francis and

she uses her yoto in the back because I can’t play songs because she wants me to change radio. So I get to drive and listen to like very hungry Caterpillar mixed in with like Jingle Bells and I’m like, wow, what a mix. So good. I love DJs bigot. That’s and it’s gonna be so sick for my practice because I’ve

been spending so long paying for like 1000 Ubers and like like favours and I have like 400 CRTS that I’m always lugging places I’d like. So I’m really I’m just so I’m so excited. So cool. Congrats you me personality. I’ll let you know once I finally get my yeah, I’ve kind of taken the like the middle ground.

I was like, oh, you can just ride like a scooter. Oh yes. I’ve got my scooter license. This scooter license is a good vibe. Yeah, that’s the thing I like. You just do that until you’ve got something you really have to carry. Yeah exactly. That’s good fun. I’ve got a lot of good drivers around me now though so I should have like 3. People driving to each other. Yeah, yeah. You know, fucking radio so.

Yeah, takes a village to raise a child. Yeah, I want to read. I want to jump into this work a little bit. I’ve got the essay on my lap. Emma. Amazing. Yeah, I’m just going to read like the the last paragraph. Yeah, yeah. And feel if there’s any other parts that you want to talk about, like feel free, but I’ll read this for the listeners. And then we haven’t like spoken

about the occult stuff at all, so maybe a good time to. I got bring some of that in. I love that. At it’s core, four O 4 era divines our endless bids for understanding and for connection. It is this glitch in us that is of most interest to the artist. Her tools across artistic and occult practice are not separate, nor do their ambiguities unsettle her.

There is as much truth in tarot readings as there are in exhibition reviews. Acknowledging the faulty interpretive systems of both does not diminish their value. It simply makes space for irreverence. Lightness and humor is the truest solve. So cool that I love so much about that. But please you, you go off. So my my mom is an artist and

she was like, actually, no, she has agreed now. She sort of raised me in a circus in that like she was in a comedian troupe and like we’re all mines and like. But she wouldn’t have characterized it as a circus in the past. Is what you’re. Saying no, no. And she the other day was like, we were talking about like danger jugglers and we’re like,

oh, Sam’s an amazing danger juggler. And we’re like, Pablo was really good, but possibly not as good as Sam. And then my mom was like, she she she silent for a little bit and she’s like, you know, then you said that you were raised in a circus. I would always think you were exaggerating, but but you know, thinking on it, I guess you kind of work.

And I was like, if it if it is like a sliding scale of not racing a circus to raised in a circus. I’m far closer to being raised in a circus. That’s. A great like mother that you get like 20-20 years, yeah. She’s like actually, now that I’m thinking about it, so like she always read tarot cards for

like as long as I remember and she was like a really good reader and she read in like a circus 1 summer. You see, like how is that not anyway, she read in the circus 1 summer. Somebody stole her cards. Scandalous. Can’t believe they would like bring such bad luck about themselves. And like when my dad passed and we were like estranged but when

he passed I was he’s like only like next of kin. So I was left with all of his stuff which is really fucking weird. But in his stuff was 5 tarot decks, which is also an insane amount of like tarot decks to have. So it’s like coming off both sides. And so I got my first set of

cards when I was 18 for Christmas and that’s when I started reading and I mainly read for myself and like friends and I still read for myself and friends. I always get a reading from my mom whenever I see her. And then at first I was like a little bit embarrassed about it

and I didn’t talk about it because I was like, I’m an artist and like in Sydney. And at the time I was like, you know, anyway, I was I’ve. It was like anything that you do with your family, it’s really embarrassing. And then one day you wake up and you’re like, wait, is this just like a core part of me that I’m hiding from the well?

And it was very. Yeah. So then and like also, I know we would like have I like sometimes am haunted by the ghost of my father, very irritating. And whenever he returns, my friends will like send me sage and stuff and like, and so and I grow all these herbs and like, I

know what they do and stuff like that. So I was like, I was a little bit witty and I had been like really a little bit sort of only my I it had been a thing that like my close friends would be like, wow, this is like a bit surprising of you, Sophie. Like, yeah, Tech Queen. Yeah, yeah. And then I was like thinking

about it more and more and I was like, I think I need to make a work about like Internet psychics because I was also like so deep on astrology. I do everyone’s birth charts like and all of that. So I made, I did an exhibition last year called four O 4 psychic error. And it was about like kind of like Internet psychics and the

occult. And I made a bunch of like sigils for things that I was worried about happening in the vision and hung them in the exhibition, like things like I had a sigil to ward off bad reviews and stuff and like, and then I made a video work kind of. Wealthy. Bias. Yeah, I was like much money like and yeah, and like, I think it’s

just such an interesting space because spiritualism thrives in times of conflict and unrest, which were in Spiritualism loves new technology. They killed it on TV, nailed it in newspapers and announced or yet again killing it on the

Internet. And it’s like really kind of underexplored because I think people, I think it doesn’t feel like the sort of thing that a serious artist would maybe do an inquiry in. And maybe that’s because it has like a sort of maybe that’s like because of the camp aesthetic.

Maybe that is because like it’s like a little bit like feminine and queer coded. But I think like it is really, I just like it’s it’s such a big part of my life and how I am like I do readings for like actually to who I do the most

readings for Ali’s friend boys. They just like, they just wanna have a conversation, but they don’t know how. Yeah, to have a conversation about their lies as yeah, that’s my partners read. And they will come over and they will just like, like walk around the cut like it’d be like. Anyway, I would be crazy if we did one of those.

Yeah, so different, like another reading. Would that be so crazy? And I’m like, you just want to talk about your feelings, Like you just want to access like intimate conversations with friends and you don’t know how to do it. If that is a way in like that’s. Power to them. Power to them, yeah. Yeah, I love it. Yeah, that’s so interesting. Yeah, that’s so much there, I guess.

Like, yeah, I feel like I we’re such like an agnostic or even atheistic culture now. Like, yeah, gosh, any bit of like spiritualism or like ritual or symbols, like especially here in Australia, like I feel like there is a place for that like time of crisis or not, right. Like I don’t really. Do do I think it’s real? Like, I don’t know.

Do I think it’s effective? It’s as it’s as effective as therapy? Sure. For me, yeah. It’s. Doing a shit question like is it? Yes. What does that even mean? It’s real. It’s like it’s like a high school atheist boy question. It doesn’t even yes. Because none of it’s real. Because we’re living in a simulation. Like, you joke, but like,

basically, yes. Like the question of whether the like photograph is real or not is also. It’s like people always ask, like, how did you do that as an AI? And it’s like, it almost doesn’t really matter. Like, yeah, the truth never really figured into it from the beginning. Like who cares? I love this. Yeah. The part of this where it’s like there’s no separation between, like, your broader art practice and this practice. And it’s like, yeah, that makes

complete sense. Like, when did art become like, yeah, I’ve always say it’s like in when I was in high school, it’s like the weird kids that didn’t like school that were doing art. So fucking serious. Yeah. It makes sense that you’re no, you’re the artist is meant to have like, grown up in the circus and blah, blah. That’s like the normal. That’s like the stereotype, right?

I remember like a lecturer IUD saying that a lot of the students who get like straight HDS in art school go on to never make work again. No, because like because they’re like get so locked into you’re getting graded that it loses the joy. Yes. And then it like doesn’t necessarily set you up for like

a sustainable practice. Yeah, you never get graded. Yeah, you can sell works, but like. Yeah. What do you like? What do you, what am I trying to get like a black belt? Like it’s just, it doesn’t kind of. Exist a black belt in abstract figurative Yeah. Like a haunted abstraction, whatever. Like it’s like it’s not I I like you gotta do it for the for the

love of the game, like just because you like making it and it enriches your life. Because you love it. That’s really there has been. It from a teacher. Yeah, sorry to cut you off. There has been like a tarot boom there, right? Oh yeah, you. Know I see. Remember those huge beautiful tarot cards at Art Space? Yeah, that was cool. Who did that? Yeah, I. Can’t remember who did that. Was there the Kate Mitchell one

or there? Was a there was a Louis a really strike there’s. Little Louise Bush. Drawing in the same thing. Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I remember. Yeah, we’ll drop it in. Later yeah, yeah, drop it drop it in feel like and now we looked out because. I feel like it was all like it became this. It was almost like a fuck you like whatever these like the

forces against whatever these like vaguely sexist blah, blah, blah, forces against like astrology and realness. And and then there was like a massive rejection of that and like a flood of. And it. Was stuff right? And it was so funny in your element. I was like, I was like having finally first time. And I think also like, that was

what made me feel OK about including it in my practice because up until then it had been like very separate because my practice was about like techno, feudalism, capitalism, labour. And like, I had been making like all these works, like back-to-back about like loading screens and stuff. And like, and then I came out of

it and I was like, maybe like, maybe I can just make one that’s like, really like for me. And yeah. And I think it was because, like, I saw I saw other artists doing that work and I was like, OK, well, like, what would this look like if I did this in within the realms of my

practice? Like, not because like my practice works with technology. Like, what would it look like if I could, like, merge these two things? And I think you can only do that when you see other people doing it within their practices. It’s like, different because a lot of it’s like painting, But like, I still fucking love it like every time. Like that Hilma Climp, Hilma F

Climp show AJ Southwest, like all the witchy shit. I was like, oh, I’m so high on this. Yeah. And. Like like this? Like the world of tarot like and birth charts like. It just figures so beautifully with computers. Somehow I don’t see a lot of crossover with it. It’s like such a perfect, what’s

the word I’m looking for, like, analogy for, like, systems a lot of the time, like all these interconnected, like, subsystems. And. Yeah, yeah, you don’t see a lot of people, like, exploring it. Yeah, I love it. And then, like, there is something deeply mystical about a computer. Like we all love them, but no one really knows how one of them works. 100% and also like the algorithm in itself is like a

psychic tool like like the Instagram algorithm. What was it like Amazon knew a pregnant a woman was pregnant before she did. And if that’s not like, because like most like like most psychic traits are like pattern recognition, like blind reads like feeling somebody in space and being able to like play off that and then like using these

images to see how people respond to them and how they connect. And like, that’s exactly what the Instagram algorithm does. Yeah, totally, totally. Yeah. We’ve just been getting ads for like sleep masks on the hung up we. Have a shared account. Oh my God. Amazing. I’m the one looking up all the sleep masks, and then it’s funny. Matt pulls up his phone and it’s like, I love that. I I wanted to play around with,

I wonder if you know anyone who’s done this? I love the idea of like, you know, you jump on someone else’s computer and the algorithm is so different. And I was like, fuck, that’s such a deep. It’s almost like this intimacy, it’s so personal and it’s so like gendered and all these things. I’m like fuck, it makes me like really reflect on my own. But it was only by seeing. The depths you know and it

becomes, it’s like water, you know, it’s like the you’re, you’re a fish and you don’t see the water like you no longer see your own algorithm. Yes, because totally. You are one with it. I have a separate Instagram that I trained really differently. And so it’s like, and so I have like I have my like my account, which is like public and then I

and it’s not even offense that like I’m not posting on it. It’s really so that I can have like a safer algorithm and I like kind of nudge it in like different directions. And it’s the one that I like I play with changing that all the time. That’s fun and like, like, and how reactive it is to like my whims.

Yeah. And that’s been like really interesting. And then also like I got I like really love like arena because it’s like non algorithmic. Yeah. And having that like get. That about it. OK, so it’s like non algorithmic. It’s entirely based. Oh my God, thank you. I huge compliments you can drive you put in the arena I’ve been on. It for a while, but it’s like it is a little.

You have to put some work in it. I’m like, how do I get this? Yes, do I? How do what’s How do this work? Because it’s non, it’s non algorithmic, and it’s just going down. It’s like doing. It’s like a Wikipedia rabbit hole combined with Tumblr. Yes, yes. Exactly. And and so you have to like put the work in to explore. It’s like early Internet and I really I really love that and

I’m like finding myself when I go on it. Sometimes my brain goes want to be smooth brain frictionless Instagram and I’m like, no, like you have to get. Producing the smart people and. Yeah, yeah. But good. Yeah, exactly. Vegetables. A little bit of Instagram for. Like. I like, sometimes I’ll just like

be on my own at night and I’ll like be like, let’s fucking go and I’ll like have like 3 or 4 beers and just like surf the web and I’m like this. Is that phrase that’s come up before on. The Yeah, we talked a lot about surfing the web. Yeah. Yeah, like what that means? Yeah, yeah, it’s actually like such a fucking act of resistance now that like it’s owned by like

3 people in like San. Francisco. Or whatever. Like, yeah, it’s, it’s quite sad, but the the, but it’s all there. It’s also there there’s a lot of web to surf like. You just have to break out of the corporate. It’s like I, I was talking to the students of SCA ‘cause every year my friend Alex, who’s an amazing graphic designer and I

like build their grad show website. And I was like, what you’re seeing on Instagram and Facebook and TikTok or whatever, it’s like, it’s like a mall. You’re in a mall and you’re, and, and if you’re only going on those, then you’re never going outside the mall and seeing the rest of the world. It’s like you’re living your entire online life within a mall.

And like, like I, I encourage you to seek other places. Yeah, the mall is fun. But if it’s all you’re going out like you’re just, it’s, that’s a very like hollow life. Yeah, Sophie, it’s been a pleasure talking to you. It’s so fun. Thank you so much for having me. I think that’s all we’ve got time for.

That went a lot of places. That went in some awesome places. Yeah. Yeah. I’ve already thought of the title of the episode. OK. Is there anything else you want to plug for our audience or anyone or any place or oh? My God, okay, so I this is not no, I’m gonna do it. Do it so myself, my friend

Sophia Cal, formerly of Slim set Love Cal for my best of the show. Love Cal and my husband Alistair. Hill of Worlds only we have started a trip hop band. No, that’s so cool. We it is very funny because Sophie is like my neighbor and

we rehearse in our laundry room after we put Francis to bed.

We will release a single at some point and we are going to be playing at Numbers Gallery with for Seb and Harrison and Emma, who wrote my essay in July. So okay, watch out if you save

the date. I think it’s the 4th I can’t quite remember but go if you would like some trip off. That sounds incredible. I’m raising my head, yeah. I would love to that I have some like proper odd stuff coming up, but none of it’s been announced yet and so that’s the only thing I feel like I can really. OK.

Wonderful. That’s a great plug. That’s that’s the best plug. Of the photo, lovely episode, thank you so much. All right. Thank you so much to say bye to the audience. Bye. If you enjoyed this episode of Hung Up, please, please, please leave us a review on your

podcast platform of choice. It would help us very much. Thank you so much for listening. OK, bye.

Show notes

Check out Sophie's great website here: https://sophiepenkethmanyoung.com/ And her IG: @sophiep_y Link to the essay by Emma O'Neill https://sophiepenkethmanyoung.com/artworks#404-psychic-error