6.4 Gus McGrath and the Homer Simpson AI cover songs

Transcript

OK, we’re rolling. I think that’s the this is the intro. Don’t say anything that you will regret. Don’t say anything that you wouldn’t say in a court of law. Now I’m not going to. I can’t make my I was going to make like a risky, not a risque joke, but like a risky personal joke. But now I can’t. It would have come across strangely. Well, if it didn’t land it would

have just been quite embarrassing for me, so I’m not going to do it. So do you want to watch this movie with me? The Element of Crime by Las von Tria a Las von Tria film on DVD on DVD distributed by I. Would love to watch it with you. But it’ll. Have to be a month in one month as you know. Yeah, and if there is someone who you would prefer to sing

your favorite Smiths song. I don’t know The Smiths. That wasn’t Morrissey. Is it Morrissey? Who would you choose if if there was anyone? Well, I don’t know that band. You’re supposed to say Homer Simpsons. Well, I mean, you know, I’ve been watching The Simpsons season 3.

True. All the good, all the best. Hits. Yeah, true.

Yeah, welcome back to episode. Beep. Oh, it’s episode 4. OK, take it again. Welcome back. We’re in. We’re in Season 6 now, well and truly underway. We don’t do any retakes of the intros now. As you can tell, we’re so professionally attuned this

week. We’ve got Gus McGrath of California Girls and Perfect Actress fame recently completed his Bachelor of Fine Art dissertation which we that. ‘D be a masters. Masters beep. And yeah, you’re about to listen to a really fun chat that we

had, including the debut of our soundboard technology and the reappearance of my favorite piece of equipment in this room, which is the portable air conditioner that I bought from Bunnings in 2024, which still works somehow.

It really shouldn’t, but it does, and you’ll be able to tell that because it’s throughout the whole episode. Great piece of kit. Yeah, so it’s a really fun conversation, really wide-ranging. We touched on film, art theory, CDs, streaming, lots of like hung up classic stuff. I had a lot of fun recording

this. That’s it. All right. Bye. Bye. Start.

Yeah. Here we are. Welcome back to Hung UP. Sitting on the sofa today is Gus McGrath. Welcome. Hi. Hey, thanks so much for having me. I’m Matt. I’m Aiden. So you just got back from Melbourne, you’re working on this.

I know this is more like work work for you, but can you tell, can you talk about that at all? Like this this film? Well, I mean, what’s what’s great, even though this is work work, this is the first time I feel like I’ve had a job where much like we were just talking about like, you know, multidisciplinary bullshit, just like essentially being a vibes

guy has like become a job, which is great. Like, I didn’t realize that that could be a job. That’s amazing. Yeah, it’s great. I’ve. Got my ears have pricked up. I’ve got so much hope for my future all of a sudden. I was a little bit like, it feels like this shouldn’t be an option because it like justifies in the indulgence.

But yeah, it’s really great. I was like volunteering, watching submissions for a Film Festival last year and saw this film and like again, I was very vigilant and I was very good when I was watching the films for the Film Festival. Like by and large, because it’s like all submissions I watched over 100 things between shorts and and features. So like a range of like a lot of things by and large.

Like you can’t judge a book by it’s cover. Like I think every other movie I watched, I was like, it looks like it’s going to be kind of interesting. It’s kind of interesting. It looks like it’s going to be really boring. It’s really boring. The one time that that was not the case was this Australian film that at the time was called Moonrise Overnight. Till that I was like, wow, this is like really funny in a very

kind of like British sense of humor. It’s very like kind of wry, understated, and it felt like it had a really kind of accurate or kind of like realistic look at millennial, kind of upper middle class, like millennial culture

in Australia, skewering it in a way that felt really accurate. So I really liked it. And then kind of like, you know, long chain of events, these people who made the film and run this production company were like, we’re looking to distribute, distribute, distribute it. Distribute it. Yeah.

And then met them, got along really well, applied for this job, and now I’m, like, working on the distribution of this film. That’s amazing. Yeah. Which is great. So it’s like they hired this woman who’s the best Kelly, who, like, worked at Sony in Hong Kong. So she’s like, actually knows how to do things. And then I’m just kind of like, I mean, my. My title is engagement. And partnerships, but like I’m

just like, this is a good, like this is a good thing. I’m just kind of a cultural Noah cool, which is like, again, I was like this. I shouldn’t. Be indulged. Yeah, yeah. It’s like it’s like this is wrong. Oh no, you definitely should be indulged. I feel like it’s like it’s like adjacent to the personality hire, but like people want to say that that’s like easy to

get, actually really fucking hard to be a good vibe, let alone at work. And then also I’m sure like you’ve got the the credentials, you’ve got the film watching credentials. Well, yeah, I mean, I like, I like to think I’ve put the work in.

Thank you. But it’s not just film distribution, right? Like, so there’s also music. Yeah. We were listening to your music this morning. Really fucking cool. Thank you. So there’s it’s California Girls, is that right? And Perfect actress as well.

Talk to us about California Girls. Like, how did that start? Like I think you’ve been doing that project for a while now, Hey? It’s like more than it’s 12 years, which is sick. Yeah. Like sick. Disgusting. Not sick like that sick. Yeah. I started, I mean, I feel like I was because I grew up in Canberra and I felt like it was

always a kind of like ping pong thing between like I’m making music, I want to make music. And then it’s really hard to kind of make people do what you tell them to do in a weird way, you know, you’re like. Yes, I do know exactly about this. I have this vision and now you need to spend all your time, like being in my band and like

realizing my vision. So it’s like playing in bands and finding that. It’s just like, it was hard to kind of have people commit to, you know, like your vision. And I’ve always liked electronic music. So I don’t know, I just kind of landed it like I will make electronic music because I can do that by myself. It’s like, you know, music that I can get done.

Yeah. And it was like a time, you know, like I was getting really into like New Order, a lot of kind of like 80s, you know, synth stuff.

Yeah. And then, I don’t know, it’s just been my kind of main musical output for all these years, which is really especially because I work slowly. But so it’s this really odd thing that’s just like, I mean, it’s nearly half my life, which is actually fucked up to. That’s amazing. More than 1/3 of my life now. Yeah. Which is odd that it’s just kind of like there, you know?

I think like there’s something, there’s something like definitely in its initial conception must have been really right and bang on for you to be able to just, like, stick with it for that long. Because I know a lot of people, myself included, like, I, I can’t. Like I had a project, it was under my own name. And then I was like, I’m sick of that.

Like I’m coming up with a name now, you know? But yeah, really, really good. Like, you know, to see that it’s like, and like how cool you’ve got all these tree rings, you know, of your musical live. Yeah, so, but you played in bands as well, is that right? Like what? What roles were you doing in the bands? Yeah. Well, so like drums is the only

instrument that I’ve like, I know how to play. Like I’ve probably learned how to play drums.

I mean, I guess I kind of, I played like snare drum in the school band in Year 5. But like, you know, I, I’m, I’m, I’m quite good at drums, if I may say, Hey, nice. Which is both a blessing and a curse because like, not many people play drums. So like when you are the person who can play drums, like you become the person who can play

drums and you’re permanently like in rotation. It’s like knowing how to design a website, we were saying. 100% or build a website. Yeah, yeah. It’s a skill that like, yeah, a friend’s like, hey, so I know you’re already doing this. Yeah, yeah. So the drums is always there. But then again, like, this is also the crisis that anyone who plays drums goes through where

it’s like, I’m sick of being the drummer. Yeah. Yeah. So like mostly drumming, but like, can play some guitar, can play some bass. I mean, it’s the same thing. Some, you know, like when I say keyboard, but keyboard makes it sound like I’m playing like a electric piano or something.

But like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, but so like competently a range of things, but mostly bass or drums, because drums I’m OK at and bass is like, yeah, kind of anyone. Can do that when you’re playing drums in a band. Do you ever have like I’m asking you this as someone who does exactly this myself. Do you ever have the urge to say, can we change that note in

the bass line to AB flat like just down 1? And I just think it would sync up better with the chord set up the next chord along. A little bit, not too much. Like I think it’s when I’m there, I’m like, I’m like, this is my spot. Sometimes I feel like perfect actress where I’m drumming, but that’s more very like it’s like, you know, like yes, and like that’s really good.

But like as an author, like what if maybe like, but luckily I’m good. I’m kind of not good enough at anything else. I feel like if I was actually, this is the first, now that California Girls, I’ve started playing in a band and I have someone else playing drums and I’m actually doing that with drums a little bit, which now I’m realizing it’s because like guitar, I’m like, I don’t know

how to do that. I’m going to tell someone to do that. When it’s the other way around. I’m like, you should be playing it like that. Cool, yeah, exhilarating. And like, I mean, it’s really cool sharing like the stage and rehearsals and the whole like, project with people. I’ve definitely. I’ve seen it from both sides, so I can completely relate. But yeah, like the music thing is, is, yeah, I mean, we, we,

we’ve, we was just speaking to a musician. This would be like, I think last week for the listeners. It’s funny to get so many musicians on this season. But yeah, I’d love to know a bit more about like your musical like influences and stuff and like what what led you to that? Like you said, New Order, what about like, you know, were you

listening to like this myths and like the Cure and stuff like that? It’s so funny that you said that, because I was thinking this. I mean, my memory’s so bad. Then I was like a lot of it as well around the time. So like I got my license when I was 17, Canberra, you kind of have to drive to be anywhere. Yeah. And my car had a tape player, so

it’s like lots of tapes. And there was my friend’s dad, he’s like old Smith’s tape, like Queen is dead tape. And I was like, yeah, California probably like 90% came out of like listening to the Queen is Dead, burnt cassette tape. Interesting. Yeah. That was it was like a. It was a bootleg. It wasn’t like a. Yeah, it was that on one side

and then a Nick Cave album on the other one. Which side got more plays? Definitely the like the I was more a birthday party guy. Like I like Nick Cave, but like I’ve never gone deep on Nick Cave. Yeah, the Nick Cave one was good, but there were big ones. I had a like. And again, all of that when I say like, you know, like cassettes that were made like

they were not made at the time they were made, like earlier. Yeah. There’s a Susie in the band. She’s 1 of Kaleidoscope. There was my mom’s. It was really good. On the mom’s tape, my mom used to it was Stevie Wonder. Yeah, because I’m. Getting so obsessed with this, I saw on your band camp for both projects you’re like making the CD and like, you know, releasing

the tape, which I think is so important and so beautiful to have. Like just as an object, but also like the object history. It’s not just like. I mean, you know, you have the record or the CD. You’re like, oh, my brother showed me this for the first time. Even if you don’t own the CD, it still has that beautiful history. But I love I. Love at the moment now like when

you know we are like burning CDs for each other. Fully. I’m a very, like slow consumer of media, totally. I just can’t handle that much. So it’s like I’ll listen to one CD for three months rather than, you know, 10 CDs. But yeah, just fully. But I’ve been missing it like, like, honestly being like, wow,

like an on reflecting on this time specifically where it’s like, I have, you know, 10 because that’s in my car right now. Like I have to pick from those 10. I got to be like jumping around where it’s like I often I’m like, wow, I’m just being washed over by music. Like, and I love music, but I’m like, I want to listen to this, I want to listen to this and I

should hear that and I should check that out. And then you just kind of like don’t intake any of it. It is intense. It’s so hard to actually connect the end of that thought of I should check that out. Even if it’s like a close friends music, it’s like so hard to just go and get it for some reason I don’t know why. Yeah. Well, because when anything is

possible, then it’s like the stakes are. So it’s not like, OK, I need to like organize to go. Like I’ll figure out where I can purchase yeah, this physical piece of music. Yeah. And then I will figure out how to play it. And like the time that I can play it is like when I have the cassette player, when I have my. Yeah, when it’s just like I will I right now, this second, I could pull out my phone and

play. Any Yeah. So it’s like, well, I’ll do it whenever. Yeah, I mean, that’s why the car is still such a good site for this because like even though most people are streaming, which, you know, it is what it is, complicated conversation. But I feel like a lot of people still like our age, like around mid 20s, thirties, still have like a CD player at least in the

car and a few CDs in the glove box, which is very sweet. And I love that people are still making CDs. To me it is like the perfect form of like a physical yeah media. Fully. I would love to get into DVDs as well, but again, but that is a little more. I’m DVD pills.

Are you really? I’m sorry. I just got my tell us about it. Yeah, I just got my first like DVD of my new in my 30s. Hey, I don’t know if you know that. Yeah. Is this the Montreal? Yeah, Yeah, it is. I like early the. Montreal MacBook. And it just blew my head off. I was like, that’s so-called a DVD menu. Yeah, a menu. For the listeners, what is the film?

It’s the element of crime, which is like, I think it’s the one of the first like properly funded lies, fun Tria films before he definitely before he got like fully conceptual artified. But I can’t wait to watch it. I’ve been like trying to be like, who wants to watch with them? Anyone. Yeah, it’s like come, come see element of crime on a, on a, on a laptop on.

A MacBook Pro 2010. You can, I mean like pending TV so I can’t remember where because you used to be able to get at a film club that like DVD rental. Yeah, I remember that place. Yeah, but they sold multi region Blu-ray and DVD players. Wow. Which I got in and it was like 100 bucks, which is not that bad. I mean it’s like, you know, bad

if you’re me and my partners. Like I’m sick of the amount of like fucking DVD’s that you have everywhere. Yeah. I mean, especially like being 30, like the, the period of like 5 and $10 DVD buckets at like JB hi-fi, like absolutely. So many of those that’s still going not really like you. Know like in op shops you can

get DVDs for $0.50 per a dollar. I mean, it’s funny, I was at yeah, JB hi-fi like the other week and they have like still Blu rays and yeah fully. I don’t even know if they have DVDs, probably just Blu rays, but they’re still like 30 bucks and they’ve got a shelf so it’s like. Yeah, there’s something area. Yeah. Yeah, it’s crazy. Yeah, it’s funny. Yeah, funny that they’re still like, are we still distributing

DVD? Like, do people still? I guess Blu rays is still kind of a thing. But it is the JB hi-fi thing is weird, right? Because you’re like, OK, at least if it’s like, I don’t know, like a 24, I’m buying a bespoke, yes, Blu-ray, right, of some art film. But yeah, you go into JB Hi-fi and it’s like like wicked and you’re like. 51st dates, yeah. Like economically it must be. It’s a lost lead, no, I guess.

People in the show. And then fully. Crowsly turntable. I think there must be enough people hanging on like to justify it. But yeah, it’s tough for me as well because I’m, it was funny. So the first chair house I ever lived in was in Newtown near the IGA. And the guy, like my landlord, I guess, was this crazy old filmmaker and he had thousands

of VHSS. So he had built these custom shelves from floor to ceiling as you walked into this house and it was just VHS. The place was crazy. And then like. Very strange at this. House. It was a fucked house I think. I’m sure I’ve spoken about it on the pod before, but I had like no windows and I had like a restaurant underneath with their big like gas fan that would spill out onto my balcony and I

had crazy. One of those like sticky exhaust fans. Like, yeah, spilling, like. And then I had, yeah, crazy housemates. And the living room was full of props. Yeah. And I thought. It was like from the films. Yeah, from his films. Just like like you couldn’t go into the lounge anyway. I thought it was the fucking coolest house you could ever live in as like an 18. I would live there now.

And when I moved out, it was funny. There was a guy like smoking a cigarette and reading a book of poetry on the balcony. Literally one in one out as you leave. Yes. But yeah, the collecting is hard cuz I’m super minimal in my things. I pretty much don’t like to collect anything. But then I love CDs and DVDs. Yeah, yeah. Like you can fit a few CDs in

like DVDs take up. Yes, they went with such an ostentatious. Yeah. Design like it’s. Such excess. And it’s like kind of quite thick, like, you know? ACD is a tiny thing. Yeah, it’s. Oh, like a DVD. Yeah, there’s not excess. Yeah. There’s like the hinge in the disc and the protection. Yeah, that’s it.

Yeah. Do you so physical media? Do you listen to stuff at home? Like like not as much. I do like, I love, I love, like kill me. I love to put on a record, you know, like, but again, because it’s nice, it’s just like it’s on. Like you put it on and then it’s on. But I don’t do it enough. Like again, I’m like, you know,

like abolish all modes of streaming. We need to kill them. And then like open Apple Music and play. Music, I know I do exactly that too. I’ve got records and I just set this whole contraption up so that I can play like digital music that’s not connected to my main computer. Because I just kept getting like a notification and then the Bluetooth would crap out and then like, and then song

skipping and becoming like curmudgeonly about this. Like if a song stops or skips because of some digital thing, I’m like fucking. If it’s like a. Skipping record, I can handle that, but my records are clean. I clean them like, sorry, yeah, it’s funny. The the physical media now are just so much more reliable. Like my Internet stopped and then the fucking, you know, the

song stopped. It’s like, yeah, yeah, it’s awful. Yeah. Even stuff just like. Disappears like I remember last night I was like, I don’t know what compelled me but I was like I really as I fall asleep I wanna listen to the like Wendy Carlos, Clockworker and soundtrack. Yeah, I love that. Soundtrack, it’ll be great. It’s amazing. But it’s so.

Hard to find online that you can find like just the one kind of theme. But I mean, there’s like a whole album and it’s got like, I don’t know, there’s some Mozart in there and stuff, whatever. But I’m like, why this is like such a famous movie by a famous composer? Like why? Why can’t I find this like on YouTube? Like on. Yeah, have you looked? On Soulseek.

I’ll look on Soulseek for you right now, I’m certain. It’s on Soulseek. I mean, I had it on an iPod because I think I just like got every song in YouTube and just like YouTube to MP3. I was never good enough at torrenting but like, I love the iPod. I’ve got a. Couple at. The moment they’re fun, but again, I I set them up with best of intentions. But then, yeah, I’ll be. Like fuck I need to. Think.

This thing again. I have a. Article that I’d like to run by you guys please. I just want to love to read this for a little bit and get your reactions. This is from Gizmodo, published February 24, 2026 in the artificial intelligence part of

the site and it goes headline file sharing network Soulseek has been flooded with AI. Homer Simpson cover songs I heard about this. Someone told me they’re like I reckon it’s a psyop because all the streamers want to just offer this as a service. It goes on. Remember back in the day when there was a non 0% chance that

the song you downloaded on Napster or Limewire was mislabeled and you ended up inadvertently listening to someone’s pet project? Well, those days are back on the peer-to-peer network. Soulseek, according to a report from Vice. Oh, wow, we’re getting this. We’ve got to get the second hand. The site has been quietly flooded with thousands of songs that have had the vocals stripped out and replaced with

lead vocalist Homer Simpson. So someone’s like gone and like made an entire library of really funny, like kind of full circle AI moment. I remember one of the only. Things I Ever Downloaded from Limewire was a best Coast album and when I opened it, it was just like the audio of Seinfeld

episodes. That’s awesome. So yeah, it’s. That’s really funny. Yeah. Oh. God, the early Internet was so sweet. Such innocent pranks. Yeah, I know. It’s in a sense. We. We we miss it, you know we do miss. It we do miss it, it comes back in certain ways. It’s funny, like, yeah, those desires to have experiences like

that people are still. I feel like it’s a good moment as much as like maybe the overall mainstream culture. It’s scary, but I do feel like, I mean, I’m someone who’s been really interested in dumb phones and not being on whatever streaming service, but I do feel like people are getting into a pretty cool place at the moment. People are trying totally cool

ways. It’s cool. I really do still love band Camp. It just feels like so much more. It’s so much less intense and algorithmic, and it’s very sweet. Like, yeah, it’s so funny. That like like the reason I set up this old MacBook was to do like CDs and like it just so happens to work with my sound card now for taping these.

But then I realized, like, looking at the iTunes is actually, it was still called iTunes on this OS. I’m like, I actually feel like I have these songs much more than I have my Apple Music songs, which is so funny, even though I, like, fucking stole half of them. Like the ones where I bought, like, Baba LEGO’s record, for example. I’m like, I have that like, and

it’s so I cherish that even though it’s just like a band camp file that I’ve copied across my computers. Yeah, yeah. Such a beautiful, like, funny thing where it’s like back in the day, you know, the way to feel like you really own something was to have the CD. But yeah, yeah, I mean, yeah, even. Buying a song in high school for a dollar, was it $1.69 or

something? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That felt like so worth it. Yeah, That’s like, true. Like I was like, it’s only a dollar for a song. Are you kidding me? So, yeah, hopefully we can go back there. I’m not doing the best at the moment, but you know, you can’t beat yourself up about it. I try and buy music and it’s lovely to buy local music. Yeah. Oh. Yeah, totally.

I think. Yeah. Like so few people have done the true monastic. Like I have denied this service. Yeah. Like I haven’t. I fucking wish I had. Yeah, Yeah. Of. Course Aden’s especially pretty. I’m pretty. He’s pretty monastic from time to time. You sound like you’re quitting. Smoking for. Me though, like I was like, OK, I’m back on like, fuck yeah. Apple Music. Just gave me a fucking trial,

yeah. Off week. I’m gonna I’m gonna hit, hit to see you again. That’s so funny. OK. I’ve got it. I’ve got the Wendy Carlos soundtrack. You found it. Great. No, I’m so much. On my computer. I’ll give it to you. Yeah. I mean, it’s pretty much. Mostly non vocal so like yeah, thieving magpie. No, no. No, no, I listen to this. It’s so weird. Like this is the thing too,

right? About like, I miss that being kind of like, you know, like an obsessive music media culture enjoyer, whatever, as a teenager. But it’s like like, I think Clockwork Orange is cool. So I’m gonna download the soundtrack. And then you’re like, I’m 15 listening to like the thieving magpie. Like between maths class, you’re like, that’s cool. Like that’s crazy.

Yeah, but does that like you? Know now you’d be like wow, like this movie is really interesting you put the soundtrack on and then you’re like I’ll skip that one like put something else on yeah which obviously I had an iPod and I could skip stuff but like sure. Yeah, it’s good question. Have we? Like I do, you know, again, don’t want to sound too curmudgeonly, but yeah, I do worry that like, you know, we have a bit of a sort of strange

monoculture thing going on where like there’s just not the dark corners are so hard to find. I mean, they’re still there like, but it’s just like, you know, it’s like the one I always think about is like the Ethiopian jazz that was like in the 90s and 80s. But it was, it really started happening in the 90s was like really the coolest coffee shop

in San Francisco Would have heard from a friend of a friend that like, yeah, this label is like gone out and found all these amazing recordings. And then it had like a couple of plays like boom. And then twenty 10s happened boom. We love it again. But it felt like the first couple of times like, wow, this real niche thing. And then now it’s like, I don’t know. I feel like we’ve sort of swung

in this direction of like, everyone’s doing trap music, like just everything is trap or drill. And then like there’s lots of like, indie people making like, folk and rock stuff. But yeah, I don’t know, it’s just fun. Like I feel like I’m a huge proponent of trap and drill. I’m like, Sydney’s actually got an amazing scene of like, underground music right now. But it does feel like we’re starting to sort of swing into

this like, area of like, we’ve been there before aesthetically. Totally. No, it’s. It needs more research I think. I actually have been trying my best to either get a photo of or get someone from the Sydney like crazy like Gen. Z rap scene on the. So if anyone knows anyone, have you guys heard this stuff like.

Yeah, well, like. Johnny Jobs. Johnny Jobs. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. If you guys get Johnny Jobson here, that would be incredibly. Yeah, that would be cool. Yeah, I saw he did his EP like release party at like it was like a Bondi Junction, like Maya, you know what I mean? Like or something like that. Like 9 buddy told perfect it. Was like.

What the fuck? Yeah, that’s genius. You have the RSVPS. So wait, which was officially? Run by the Maya. I don’t know. Wait, where? Was it it was like in the IT was in the like Bondi Junction? Yeah, Wow. I mean. Yeah, I. Could believe that. Like the Bondi Junction mall. Yeah. Like, yeah. They’re pro Johnny Chops, yeah. I’m looking it up.

I’m, I’m being the the real like intern producer. It was a really good, yeah. There is a really. Appreciate this as someone who like can’t stop the instinct like I’m always like I need to know, we should know, OK? Free will EP release party OK 6:30 till 930 PM 27th of February. That’s tonight. Kashubi Bondi Westfield. That makes so much sense.

Isn’t that sick? Damn we should try and launch party. Sounds that party good. I’ve been thinking a question performance, so like you’re talking about like, yeah, making the music and obviously listening to the music, but I feel like you’ve yeah, definitely. Got quite a lot of. Intention when you’re performing this? Yeah. Any just general thoughts about

Yeah? I mean, the big thing that’s like, I mean, always love performance. Much like kind of, you know, like getting into the weird niche stuff. Like I was such a like I’m a freak teenager. So obviously I was like looking at a lot of stuff and being really interested in like both like music that’s very performative or extreme.

Like I was really obsessed with that Japanese band Hannity Rash. There was this like noise band, you know that I’m like the Boredoms, like Boris. I’m sure there’s like chains of relationship there. This is Hannah Trash was this insane noise band in the like late 80s, early 90s in Japan. And that thing was just like throwing panes of glass into the

audience like 1 show. They like drove a bulldozer like into the venue like they like broke a wall. Oh, I’ve heard. About these guys, it’s, it’s real. Like, I mean, again, I get sucked into this stuff, like YouTube real being like, is this the craziest music ever made? And then they’re like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I think I’m watching that. Right now, actually, I mean, it’s great. It’s. So compelling and they just look

incredible all the time. Yeah. But so like loving very like kind of extreme, you know, performative things like that. And then being into like, I mean, you know, the inevitable kind of chain into being into like performance art being. I don’t know. And especially because I was like, like, I tried theatre in high school and I was like, this is just like so crushingly

embarrassing to me. Like, I cannot do this, like not being a dance person. So this is kind of like realm of performance. That’s like, you know, like, wow, you can just kind of like do random. You can do random. You can be weird. I see. Yes. Yeah, but so I ended. Up going to art school but my

logic was like I need to go to art school to be better at making music cool. Like I mean yeah, obviously I was like into visual art and I like started in photography and then was really bad at it moving to like art history and art theory. But I was like, you know, all these bands, like all these no wave bands that I was really obsessed with. Like they all went to art school

and like, yeah, right. You know, I don’t know. Like David. Bowen went to art school Like the the logical thing for me to do is to like understand art and implement that, you know, kind of like music context because like I’m way more interested in the, you know, like performative affect or like the energy of the music rather than being like C

major scale. Up and down, up and down, I’m in the. Mixolydian mode on this one, Nerd. Yeah, and especially cuz again, like, I like, I can’t read music. I’ve never like, really formally been taught music. So. Yeah, like I was way more interested in kind of like, you know, like I don’t, I don’t need to be told how to like play music better.

Like I’m interested in the kind of like how to present, how to present that. So I’ve always been like really interested in that. And it’s funny cuz especially in California, I don’t know, it’s like a weird balance. Like I, I, I feel like a lot of the time I’m making the music to

kind of like, I mean, it sounds kind of unhinged, but like putting it in enough of a context and an energy that I can kind of like bring myself to the point of doing that. Cuz I think there’s a level of like you can kind of be performative, but it’s like, you know, like I’m doing choreography and it kind of like, sure. It doesn’t. Really hit maybe for me at least

I feel like I can’t. I don’t know if that makes sense here, but like, yeah, the performance is really like I’m really interested in the performance, but then also kind of like using the music as part of a kind of like frame to like make space for the performance, if that makes sense. That’s interesting. That makes complete sense.

Yeah, OK, good. I’m glad. That makes sense. Interesting. Yeah. Super cool. And was there any like particular like moments or, I don’t know, just maybe not a particular moment, but like a something that you were like, damn, like you got that from your art school performance like that? Sort of, Yeah. Yeah. Well. I mean, there was definitely no

like performance stream OK in at the art school when I was there cuz I like I went to ANUI, did my undergrad in ANU and I think it’s changed a bit now, but it was like very, all the departments were like very sectioned off. And it was really like, if you’re in photo, like you’re taking film photographs, like if you’re in sculpture, you’re

doing bronze casting. Like they’re all very formal. Such a shame. I know. I think that. Will they feel, Oh, it was, I think it was really bad. I mean, I this is personal beef, but like, I hate the A&U painting department. I think that’s so annoying. Oh wait, let me get one. Of these, hang on a second. Yeah, let me get some OPS off here. I just found a soundboard

online. So we’re going Hell yeah. You are following so many of the instincts I have, which is really pleasing me. It would again, it would be like I’m I’ve always worried about having access to one of these because it would just be like non-stop. Yes, yeah. I’ll, I’ll be judicious, thank you. Oh, I, I, I trust your, your

soundboard vision. Yeah, Like it, it was I, it was good in a way because it meant I kind of had to like push myself to do those things, like if I kind of wanted to do performance stuff, which was good. I mean, I remember like one that

was really interesting when I was doing photo is my photo. I get like the lecture at the time was really bad. And he was like, I think you’d be really into like Matthew Barney because he’s like kind of weird with his description. I was like, I can’t believe you’re a lecturer and you’re describing something as weird. It’s like Matthew Barney’s like so famous. Like it’s not even that weird,

but I’m trying to think like stuff that really affected me. I remember he did the cream. Master Cycle. Yeah, he was B ex. Husband for like 20 years or something. Did you know that? Ada? Yeah. They’re. Incredible movies, yes. I’ve never seen them. Yeah, I mean, they’re like bits. Online. It’s kind of a. Like, like they look beautiful, but yeah, you know, like.

You’re not supposed to actually watch, Yeah. No, no, no, no, no, no. That’s cool. That’s interesting. I. Mean, I do feel like, because I did like ABA and I do feel like not for everyone and maybe not for these days, maybe all education, but art education in particular, sometimes it’s quite different to a more traditional job education in the sense that

a lot of my learning came through almost like resistance to the institution fully. And it’s in this weird way where I look back and I was like, I was mad about a lot of things. Like I took an Australian art history unit and I was pissed off the whole time I took that course. But like here I am 6-7 years later talking about Australian

art history. Or I thought this, why the fuck are we watching this movie in this room like or whatever. But yeah, it’s interesting. It’s just a little less maybe linear than some other things, but you come out of it, you know what I mean? Like it’s sort of it’s like the the fucking cliche of like an art degree teaches you to like be a person or teaches you to think teaches you to make a

cappuccino. It’s. Absolutely. In my case that’s. Very. But like, you know, yeah, it was cool. Like even if it’s not exactly there, you’re still sort of like you’re in that. Working out there. And I love the idea of going in with an intention like that. Like it’s very sweet and yeah, yeah. Young. Person. Yeah, I mean, I was being.

Bullshit. Like I wasn’t good at it. I wasn’t like I was right like we were. Making bullshit. I heard a thing recently by some really like serious Italian realist. Oh yeah, painting school. And he’s like, none of you are making art to all the students, just so you know, like you are making artistic decisions. And I was like, that’s kind of

brutal, but also maybe kind of true. And usually my. Undergrad. Poetry class, like none of us were writing. I don’t know if it’s useful to say that to people, but yeah, there’s a way. To do it, yeah. But. Anything that’s good, you have that level of like, and it’s a weird line, but like that kind of like, I feel like the most helpful thing, you know, to be

like, what can you get out of art school? But honestly, like, kind of like to have a kind of like discursive and or critical approach. Like, because I think it can either swing both ways. You know, like I feel like when I was a day and you and again, like I sucked at photography, I left because I like literally couldn’t take a photo without flash. Like I I couldn’t focus a camera. But like you’re on one hand, it’s like, this is how the art

is done. And like, this is a, you know, formal classical system that we are like, you know, need to respect, which, again, I think you need to like, know history and, like, understand that medium you work in. But like, you know, there’s a range of ways that, you know, art formats can use. But then the other side as well, like, which I found really odd going to articles.

There’s so many people who are like, I want to do my drawings and you leave me alone to do my drawings. And it’s like, why the fuck are you here? Just like, go do drawings. Like, I think like you’re saying, right? You’re like, I fucking hated this thing that we had to watch. Like, I don’t really understand what the point of this is, but kind of engaging in a yeah. And they’re like critical. Yeah, yes, that is interesting.

And you do always see that at like the end of the year at the grad shows, you see some people that clearly we’re coming at this whole art school thing from a very different angle. Although sometimes I’m almost like, fuck yeah, even though like some people are like, I’m pissed off. Like they didn’t do it art school properly. And like, yeah, it’s true. And maybe they like, quote UN

quote wasted their time. They just like, you know, it’s an extension of I’m bored in math class, I’m drawing whatever I want one and the work comes out and they cooked. But then sometimes I’m just so pissed off with like the institution. It’s like, you know, in high school, like the art kids often were like the ones that didn’t like school. Yeah. Now, like, you know, it’s cool to be like, smart and well read

and be able to put together all these beautiful concepts. But it’s also like, fuck, like, when did art school become like, fucking, you know, Yeah, hyper, hyper, hyper academic. Yeah. It’s a tension for me as well. Totally isn’t. This meant to be. Like the blood subject, like my feelings and being weird. Why do I need to defend it like within an inch of my life?

No, absolutely. I don’t know how to where I fall. I mean like. Certainly a lot of that stuff becomes helpful if you do wind up with the professional painter’s career where it’s like, hey, like, you know, the MCA needs a really nice wall text and he’s like, listen, like, you know, you got to sell your painting for $100,000, like we at least.

Need you to sell? It to the fucking collectors so that they feel like they got a really. Yeah, the color. That’s two people like and like what fucking kid I don’t like who’s making art is like I dream of the the well written wall text Yeah, but yeah, I mean like bit of a I mean artist never writes you Yeah, you wrote this really awesome dissertation. I don’t want to do it a

disservice because we had a look at it today and we we’re like, OK, we need to fucking read this, Read this if we wanna talk about it. But I would love to hear just a little bit about it. High level for people that yeah, well, I mean. Even the overall summary I would give to this kind of academic research I do is the framing I

would give to the academic research I do. But honestly, like the framing of. I’m in this reading group, like reading writing group right now. It’s really nice. Jack Mannix and Charles Carroll run it. They’re both really lovely. But it’s like they’re called Sunday school. They’ve done a few of them. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s like fortnightly every Sunday. We’ll like Adam. What’s?

The place again, they did a reading at.

Nasha when it was on. OK, I’m thinking of something else. Maybe this one they. Kind of do it at different people’s houses, right? I think you’ve sent. This to me before, yeah. Maybe they’ve done a few I think. This is the yes. 4th. Cool sounds. Cool semester, yeah. It’s good and it’s nice. So it’ll be like once, once a fortnight, you know, there’s like, I don’t know, ten of us in like 2 of us will read a text.

I brought this, you know, like writing I was working on. And they were like, like saying this positively, but like, this feels like the rantings of a madman. Like this feels like an insane person’s diary. And I do think that’s the mode that my master’s is in. Yeah, I got that. Vibe in the best possible way,

Yeah, it was. Sometimes I’m like, it’s crazy that I got away with this. Yeah. In that I do think like, you know, I guess there’s academic rigor in there. Oh, absolutely the. Bibliography’s insane. Yeah, the bibliography. Well. It’s really cool. I mean mostly it. Was like, like, I mean, maybe

it’s like adjacent to what you’re saying in that I do really take like, like correctly researching things, like very seriously. And I am very invested in it. But also I was like, I don’t know what to do with my life. And I can get paid to do a masters for two years. Cool. And I will write about whatever I want. Yeah.

Yeah. So it feels really loose. I’d started out wanting to. You were like, can you talk about it quickly? And then like 20 minutes later. Take your time. That was great. And when I’d applied what I was really interested in was like film scripts and how in like plays are readily like people

read plays like people like I wanna sit down and read Shakespeare. I’ll. Have a go film. Scripts are like people don’t really read them, especially for like pleasure in a way that people read. I’ve tried to a. Couple of times I’ve read a couple, yeah. No, it’s like. It’s awkward. It’s. Also like a very technical weird language as well. Like, yeah. Close up to. Cutting to yeah.

It’s a weird. It’s a weird. Language where you’re kind of selling it right to the you’re sort of selling it half the time you’re selling the production to totally the company like well, let me see, it’s like. Such a practical document. It’s like OK play scripts need to be used but it’s still like everyone text right? Well, totally, yeah. And that’s why you can kind of ship it out. It’s like both the Royal Ballet

is doing Midsummer Night’s Dream, but then also, I don’t know, some high school is also doing it because it’s the same text. Yeah, true, true. But here a film script, and this is like from talking to film people, I know they’re like, it’s a formal document, like it’s functional. So it’s not kind of meant to be fun to read. But so there’s this that really brief kind of like small history of like people who’ve published

film scripts, like for like the films weren’t made, they’re just to be read. And then it’s kind of this like weird imagined. And again, in the same way that a play like it’s like it’s restaged and every time it’s done, whether a film is kind of like made and completed.

So I found it really interesting. Like it it came out of like me thinking about it was well, the two things which I don’t know if I even get into in the thesis. There was this Felix Qatari like sci-fi movie he wrote in the like early 80s. I think that like just was

published because no one wanted to make the the Felix Katari love of it was called the love of UIQ, which was really interesting. And then the other one is Coyle made a soundtrack for Hellraiser that didn’t get used. But I was like imagining this movie anyway. So I was like kind of really interested in that.

And so I’d applied to kind of do this like, you know, like trying to look and write about like the film script. Is this like, you know, poetic mode. And then I like, didn’t it all do that? There’s like 1 chapter about it in the end. Like I guess arguably the way I kind of framed it. And then I guess it is about is like each if you if you kind of

take that idea of like what I was interested in the film script thing is, it’s like a work that is like kind of like never made because it’s like you’re kind of always it’s like for this movie that you’re imagining that like doesn’t exist. And then because it is this, it’s like not a film or a text really, like even. A lot of like I read the script for Blade Runner, which is like

actually quite different to the film. Like they ended up making a lot of funny decisions either on set or in the editing room, like we don’t need the scene or like sex it up a little bit. Why don’t you like so? Yeah, so it doesn’t even really get fully played. The whole yeah fully thing. Yeah, yeah. Which it’s weird. The kind of like, I don’t know, imaginary production or whatever.

But then so I guess from there, like each chapter is kind of like looking at different media. So like some of it is music, some of it’s film, some of it’s writing and thinking about how like it. All of them defy a kind of like set a a setness. They all kind of have this like,

you know, liminality to use a kind of art school I will allow. Words. Very much beautiful tale on that. Yeah, I guess.

That’s the general thing. And then kind of, yeah. Arguing. I don’t know.

Yeah. I don’t know. Yeah. And it’s queer. What about? I don’t know, Yeah. No, we were having a lot of fun reading the definition of the word seclusion this morning. Yeah. Yeah. Which is in the title. Yeah. And it’s it’s just so cool to like, it just sounds amazing to have. Right. I didn’t realize you were on like a scholarship or something to do it.

But yeah, just to have the opportunity to kind of like just Max out and really indulge in all these these readings and the strange books, like. Yeah. And. Even because I like the whole time, because it was like a, it was a, it was a Fine Arts project. Like what you got is crazy cuz you like go to the Cafe, you know, and they’re like, oh, so you’re at uni, like you’re at the art school.

Like what are you doing? And you’re like, I’m riding. What are you painting a picture? Of yeah, like what? Yeah, that’s funny. Cuz I really thought I. Had to separate the kind of like, you know, like the artwork, the text artwork that I was making and the, you know, the dissertation. Yeah, but Snack Syndicate, who were my supervisors were like, make it 1.

So it’s also crazy because it’s like the academic research and then there’s like kind of some plot in there. It makes so much sense though. Is this a, like, relatively recent thing? The artist has, like, escaped my mind. But I remember the first time I saw, like, a, like, a master’s thesis that was itself, like, an artwork. Yeah. And. It was like.

Yeah. Is that, I don’t know if that is like more recent, I mean I think. Kind sort of, yeah. But I mean, I like I probably should have just it. Makes a lot of sense though, right? Like totally makes a lot of sense to me. It’s like, again, always the division between like, you know, like the teacher and the academic. It’s like, you know, someone who is a great researcher and has this depth of knowledge and then

has to Teach First years. Maybe they like it, maybe they don’t. I mean, I’ve been teaching for like only a year and a half and I’m already kind of like, OK, that’s enough. Like, yeah, I mean. You were teaching in. Probably the hardest, Yeah, I was teaching in an. I wasn’t teaching sweet young bro. I was a middle class artist. Yeah, but still. No, I don’t think, I don’t think I could be like a lifelong teacher.

Yeah, bro. But yeah, no, I definitely. It makes a lot of sense to me. It’s like, totally. It’s like you’re gonna sing your master’s thesis cuz it’s about, it’s the music course. Like, of course you should. Yeah, totally. But I think it makes sense too. Like it’s it’s I think you were kind of talking about it before as well, right. But like that either it can be

like stuff can be so overloaded where it’s like this is the reading and like the painting I made is like based on kind of like post structuralist theories of like affect and technology. And you’re like, the work this person has made would be really interesting. And I’ve obviously read about

this stuff and they can springboard off that stuff. But it kind of becomes sometimes in that academic environment, so prescriptive where it’s like, I make these really interesting sculptures with plastic, whatever, that kind of something. But because in this context, I

really have to like show that I’ve like done the research and like, you know, like X went to Y to Z. So it’s very prescriptive. And then so I think it’s like, yeah, on one hand, like you can kind of often in those circumstances, you’re kind of forced to like over explain stuff and kind of like really make everything.

This is like, it’s like text, not subtext. Absolutely. But then on the other side too, it’s like, if you’re good at research and like, why can’t research be interesting? Or like, why can’t there be like, because like, like, I don’t know, it’s like text does stuff like theory does stuff like why can’t you let the the

theory doing things like be part of it or like, you know, like kind of like narrativeize it or like make that an artistic or poetic or whatever it seems. Absolutely. I mean, again, I haven’t fully read it, but the the vibes we got reading the like the chapter headings and looking at the

table of contents of the bibliography and stuff, I’m like this motherfucker really enjoyed the research. Yeah, it just looks like it’s such a fun. I mean, if there’s a dissertation. We would read. It would be that one, absolutely. Yeah, I like to. Think it’s fun and really, I mean, I got some, OK, I always make this sound more formal than it actually is.

I got some funding to try and publish it, but the funding was from the Randwick Council because I live in Randwick and I just kind of convinced them that it was like a public good for Randwick. Hell yeah, I think it would be. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But so hopefully. The idea is like, I think someone might want to read this. Like maybe. Yeah, totally. Yeah, so it should be. I love.

It. I mean, I hope so, yeah. We. Publish first and then ask questions later on this podcast. Yeah, I. I works for me. I think it’s published. Yeah, that’s. A really neat idea as well the idea cuz I guess so much of like niche academia, it’s like, you know, written by like, you know, as you know, this subfield and this sub sub subfield. Yeah.

And it’s only me and like the three other people in the world that know about this stuff. Yeah. Even just the act of publishing something and having, you know, someone read it who isn’t you know, yeah, your family or your best friend or totally the other person in your fully. It’s a beautiful idea and like totally, I guess like conceptually ties it up quite neatly because it’s no longer

this like locked up academic objects. Totally something that could be totally in the fucking scary section of a cute bookshop. Fully still in the scary. Section. Yep, actually, someone can pick it up, which is awesome. Yeah, but. It’s such a thing too, where it’s just like I love and I

think a lot of people are like this, especially people who maybe make this podcast, don’t listen to this podcast. Like I like stuff and I like knowing about stuff. I love knowing about stuff and things. Like it’s so compelling and interesting to me, which is like ultimately really like if you boil it down and like, wow, I love stuff and things. And here’s like a list of the

stuff and things that I was interested in and like try to kind of justify or think about that. But it is true. Like I can’t I was thinking about this before and I can’t remember what part of today in the conversation I was thinking about it. But like, I do really think in this kind of like, you know, streaming monoculture, this like let people enjoy things moment, which again, I think is great. People can and should enjoy

things, but like this, this like real people I’m so scared of and throughout pretentiousness all the time where if you kind of point someone towards or like talk about something that’s maybe like more obscure or more niche, like a lot of the time people are like, what the hell is this? Whether I’m like to me it’s exciting and I love that and I

want people to tell me about weird, interesting, cool things I don’t know about because I want to know about those things. Yes, and it’s like such a psyop of like you need to be. I mean, I was thinking about it today. Fuck, what was that other streamer that that guy is like making music is so tiring. You know, people who make music don’t even like making music. Like we should just generate

music for them. And they’re like, I mean, obviously there’s like so many issues with this, right? But it’s like a world where it’s like the world you’re pitching is actually like everyone works these like insane, like, you know, crypto office jobs and they’re like so exhausted when they come home that they need to be like inundated a fucking. Yeah, baby bottle. Yeah, put.

Me put me in the like you know, like jerk off machine that like goes through TikTok for me absolutely which again sure, I love a scroll or whatever, but it’s like this this thing where it’s like the common person just wants to enjoy themselves and like it’s actually like interesting and enjoyable to like learn about things yes, I think.

Like you’re you’re sort of maybe you’re alluding to like what I find to be like a pretty scary, sometimes scary, like anti intellectual world streak in modern. I don’t know about world culture, but definitely in American and Australian culture where it’s like it’s quite it’s quite an uncomfortable thing to be like in at the pub and

someone’s like, you know, I saw this cool movie and you didn’t and it can be come off funny. But also there’s a lot of this instinct of like, Oh, you fucking read like whoa, big fucking hotshot over here. Like I love it. It’s just so uncomfortable when it’s like, man, like I get it, like I do get it. I don’t want to make anyone feel dumb, but yeah, it’s, it’s a bit of a scary impulse because like

if you, if you sort of run it out, like do a couple more steps down the like Trumpy right wing world thing, it’s just gets really nasty And like maybe even beyond what people would like. Like if they’re sort of jokingly saying that stuff, even half jokingly saying it to sort of reserve some little border of like self safety, like even if they’re half joking, it just, it

does feel like it’s sort of points towards a pretty nasty future, yeah. And I think intention is part of it too, right? But like the idea that it’s like, you know, if I’m at a, if I’m at a table with friends and I’m like, I don’t know, did you guys see this movie? And they go like, no, like, what’s that? And then it’s like you come to that with like a good faith argument because you’re in a context of friends and you go,

wow, that’s interesting. Like I’d love to know more about that. I don’t know, like I think a. 100% I want, I want people to be interested in things like honestly, even if they don’t know about them. I always talk about poetry, like poetry scares everyone. Totally. People get. Mad when I talk. About poetry. But I do think like to like I feel like people like everyone

actually, from from what I’ve seen, even people that like maybe aren’t into super niche contemporary art podcasts do often like that that how who could. Not be into it. Yeah, they like that Tastier. Stuff they like those quote UN quote better movies like and just by that I mean something that’s not just the absolute like Netflix slop that’s made, you know, to be a second screen

fully. But you know, it is the exhaustion of work. And it is I think for the most part, it is the fucking algorithmic tech company dominance that makes it so easy to slip into slop and that is hard to dig yourself out of. But I don’t think that people for the most part, just even seeing my family or extended friends that aren’t as into this, that stuff like they often

will like, you know, you go see like, you know, a cool new movie that’s like challenging and they often have really beautiful and they love it. And so it’s like, I think people are very open to it, more so than they might even admit. That’s like my first part is like, I really think it’s more absolutely the Netflixers of the world that’s killing us rather than people being lazy. 100%. And the second part is I do

think we have a bit of a crisis of like, especially younger dudes just being such assholes about their shit, which has like turned people off like. About their their their well, like the I. Felt like we had to backlash against like, like I agree. Like I wish it. I don’t want it to be bad to be pretentious because I want to be

able to talk about a poem that I love that like makes me want to cry that I’ve been reading for 10 years without like kind of upsetting people because they’re like they feel intellectually inferior. And also, I guess I have a job there to like, bring it to people in a way that is cool. Totally, totally being. Like look how fucking smart. I am which like sorry guys, but a lot of people can’t help doing

that. Like no totally. Oh, no, totally. Well, yeah. It’s like the double. Like there’s a level where it feels like it’s like Netflix is like weaponized something that’s long existed, right. Like the the John Berger ways of seeing thing where it’s like, you know, people, people most commonly associate art galleries with like churches or like

libraries, like kind of like quiet, you know, like places that it’s like there’s your authority here and you have to respect it. But like Netflix is kind of like, you know, the Netflix is the Spotify or whatever. It’s like, yeah. Like they fucking hate you. Like, it feels like there’s a level where they like weaponize the culture. It’s like, you know, if someone says that they think Wednesday is kind of stupid, like they

fucking want. You to die immediately, but no, it’s. True. Yeah, It is like, I don’t know, Is this the? Is this like the post hipster economy where the Strokes has ruined everything right now but it is the band? The Strokes. Yeah, the band. Yeah, I’m like trying to think where is it? The moment where it’s like people, right? What’s the influence? Point.

That’s a good question. What is? When did this all change? I need to read. I read this book a while ago. That was called Why Pretentiousness Matters, which was recommended to me on Hate Rock’s website. Cool. That’s awesome. Yeah. I mean like, that’s such a hate Rock. Recommendation. Oh yeah. On their website they have like every album.

They’re like, we were reading this and watching this and wow,

that’s cool. There’s like arguments. You know, like this guy, I remember the big argument. He’s like, it’s kind of like it’s like free class mobility where it’s like I’m able to be like, yeah, I actually have all this kind of like knowledge and power. But I agree. Like, yeah, there’s so many. It’s that kind of man. It’s kind of it like. Jason or something? Yeah.

Sometimes I get where they’re coming. From like the if you it’s it’s, it comes off to other people as pretentiousness, but if you, the artist, if you’re coming off that way, you probably believe in your shit a lot. And it can be really helpful for pursuing like especially uncomfortable or odd odd angles. Like no, like I’m I’m doing this

weird thing and and I’m fucking I think I’m like better than you air quotes like enough to like believe in myself despite all the like, the like, you know, calls to like make it more understandable or whatever. Like yeah, to have. Honestly, to have some kind of like creative practice, like there is a level where you actually have to be kind of insane and delusional enough to be like, yeah, it’s important

that I, I think I agree. Right about why I’m. Like you have to be somewhat delusional because otherwise you. Just stop eventually, like, because I know people who have said like, my opinion doesn’t matter enough, so I’m going to stop making art. And it’s like, yeah, if you just believed in your opinion, like a little bit more, you would still be, you know, painting or whatever. Yeah. It’s like in a. Way it it doesn’t matter, but

like you need to push past that, pretend that it does. All pretend it does, and I believe that everyone’s opinion matters, so that’s why I’m. Good at looking at. Art because everyone doesn’t, doesn’t. But that’s like, it’s true. Like I agree, like I think, and this is like, yeah, where does this come from in the culture? But it’s true that, like everyone, any response to any

kind of creative work is really valid. And like, like I, I’m someone who loves theory. Like I’m so theory peeled. Love it. Interesting. Like if it’s kind of if I really boiled everything down, maybe that’s what I like kind of most interested in, most compelled by. I love like thinking about like why?

I understand that not everyone is that. And again, I don’t think that is the most valuable thing. And I think even though I love that stuff, I still think that I mean, this is this is a conversation I have all the time with my dear friend Marcus Whale. But like, he’s a he Marcus Wales shout out who also when you were talking about you make these C DS, I was like, Marcus actually

made the C DS for me. I didn’t even touch them. He was like winding up conversation I have with Marcus all the time because he went to like the Conservatorium of music. Like he is like a skilled musician. He’s like a composer. He knows how to do this stuff. And we’re both really into like Ligety and all these kind of like, you know, like 20th

century like hardcore abstract composers. And we’re both coming at them from very different ways where he’s like, I understand the place that they where they came from. And the theoretical stuff and what they’re. Doing clouds of nodes to me it means I guess I can kind of understand, but ultimately both

of us are the the theory around that be that the kind of practical theory is like what the composition practically is doing with notes and or the kind of like, you know what it represents, you know, like the Trinity for the victims of Hiroshima represents such. A gorgeous piece of music, it’s incredible. But then. Ultimately it’s like all the theory and all this stuff actually builds up to like just pure like affect and impact and

that it’s like actually like, you know, the, the, the average person quote UN quote. But like, you know, someone who isn’t. I love extreme contemporary like composition. Like they ultimately have the same emotional effect. Like what’s interesting about the work isn’t when I hear this, I understand that like playing

this many notes sounds crazy. Like what’s good about it is you’re like, wow, this feels so intense. And that’s like a tangible response that any person can have. And I do think that is the value of art, right? Is that it’s like, you know, this is my parents. Like they’re not really particularly artistic people. And they’re like, you know, come to an exhibition with me or something. Like we don’t really get it. And it’s like, there’s no

getting it. Like it’s just kind of like that is. Exactly. Yeah. But The funny thing is to get to that point where you understand that there is no getting it, it kind of takes 10 years of like fully struggle. So it’s really hard to then say that to someone like don’t understand poetry, just stop trying to understand it. Like you kind of need to get through it.

That’s a good point. That’s true, but that was really, really. Beautifully put. I’m someone who really is struggle, struggles with theory.

I guess I’ve kind of like rejected it for a while because of course. I guess my like. I am a bit of an extreme person, but maybe you have a recommendation for me. I really like the way that you’ve put that. I guess I was worried that if I

I didn’t want to get into this world of like I feel like academics do sometimes, which is rather than feel like they don’t have to be exclusive, but it’s like, I’m going to hide behind, oh, I know exactly what this was made of and when it was made and all the historical factors and the context. And it’s like, but did you like feel about the painting at any

point? Like like when we went to see. It’s Sugimoto, right? Like those big long exposure. Yeah. Those long, long exposures. Of like cinema screens. And I was just like, and Matt and I were like, we were together, but we were, you know, sort of just what? And we were, I could both tell we were both feeling this beautiful, like overwhelming. And like, only then did we think like, oh, it’d be cool to read

this wall text or something. So I guess totally I think. It’s probably. A bit of a paranoia fully that the. Theory will like. Take that away from me, but I guess I’m just rejecting like, I guess I’m just pissed off at like the academic who knows everything totally and has like, you know, academics. Doing what we say is like, like just pretend like you do know

everything, I guess. Yeah. And they and they also have the the like added benefit of just being able to like reference everyone else that has done the same thing. And there’s this kind of through line of like inquiry, I guess, but part of that does. I think feed into the, you know, the mainstream feeling of I don’t get it, You don’t get it. Well, maybe you, if you read

this big not history tone, then you’ll know how to feel about the Sukimoto feeling, which is like super misguided, right? Well, yeah. Tell it like that there’s a prescriptive like this is the way you should feel because it does this, which is insane. But I mean, it’s like going back to my thesis, but like honestly, it’s part of it. That’s like why I think like the personal voice is important

because it’s like inevitably anything you’re coming at it from a perspective and an angle. Like you can’t be the pure objective force of knowledge on anything because you exist in context. Yeah, like you have a lot you can do that in. Mathematics. Otherwise, yeah, I’m like, annoyed. Yeah, bring this the self. Into it. I don’t know, I. I’m like studying logic and kind

of math right now. Yeah. And it is so much about my own brain and my own feelings. It’s it’s interesting. I am OK. The result is what objective. But like I can’t. Find a. Button on the soundboard for that sentence. What’s the maths fun? What a good boy. That’s all I got.

That’s good. I. Mean yeah, maths is crazy. Like when you’re in like engineering, it’s like theoretical maths or whatever. I mean, I don’t know if people explain this to me, I’m like fuck no. I. Don’t really I don’t understand anything. What are you doing with? Maths. It’s like. It’s more logic than math. My teacher would say that the math or like the the algorithms

that we’re solving are like Trojan. It’s like a Trojan horse. So math is the Trojan horse, but like problem solving. The Greek soldiers. Exactly. Exactly. But then even problem solving and the like, observing, wow, it’s like this poem, my favorite poem by John Ashbery talks about

the extreme austerity of an almost empty mind. Like when you write poetry, like trying to get your, your mind, like every thought, like so, so clear and understand what thought leads to the next thought. Because that’s kind of what you need to solve these because that’s logic, right? Because it’s so brutally so, I guess, yeah, it’s a roundabout way of getting to, you’re kind

of tussling with your mind’s own discordance too. So it does have quite a personal element, Like I’m kind of wrestling with my, I work these out by hand and I’m wrestling with them on the page, wrestling with myself. You’re more in theory. Than I am. This is more theory than I’ve ever done. Yeah, that’s funny. Yeah, it sounds like a

fascinating. Course, she’s been telling me all the time. Yeah, it’s. Amazing. I do. Interesting, yeah, but yeah. Do you have any tips for me? Like where should I? Where is a bit of art theory I can get as someone who’s been scared away from it for a little while like art theory? Even like a room I. Don’t know local stuff. Yeah, I’m. Trying to OK brain again. I’m such a slow thinker.

Well, the thing I think too like art theory. It’s been so long since I’ve actually, like, been in like, art specific theory. Interesting. Yeah. True. I get really into, like, the things that I really love. And I think there’s a little bit in there. But where it gets like crazy is it’s like psychos who are like, justifying what they’re into. So I’m like, really into and

have been really into this guy for a while called George Batai. Oh yeah, yeah. Who’s like, he was like a novelist, but he’s a theorist and, like, his theory makes no fucking sense. Like that’s the stuff that’s good. Like, yeah, cuz it’s like he’s just like writes about like what if the Earth like actually had a

volcanic like semen inside it that like a tree comes out and the tree is also an eye and the eye like I spent weeks reading this at an old retail job I was doing just like what? Right. But that’s something great. Like I’m trying to think. I mean, the stuff like I like, I love John Berger, like ways of seeing, which again, is just

kind of like, but it’s, that’s what’s good because it’s just so clear and so simple. It is shockingly simple that. Book and kind of yeah it it stands up yeah, I think those. Are your eyes and your? Heart and you will know the Yeah. Yeah, true, which I think I passed that. Those are the two. It’s like I. Want that or then I want like Delos where I’m just like, I don’t understand.

I’m reading like one page a day, just like no Fantastic. What I think, yeah, really the most compelling case for theory that I Yeah. There you go. Yeah, great job for me. For me, I think simple or illegible, Yeah, if it’s like kind of purporting to be smart. But yeah, I’m trying to think of any actual kind of contemporary

or just like who’s around? Who am I? I don’t know. I I felt really out on art lately. Like I actually feel really out. I’ve taken a while off as well. And shit like I had, I don’t sell. Our share a few times I’m like. That’s fine shorting art. It’s done, yeah. Especially when you’re. Working like when you’re into a music and film and fashion. Gus is wearing tabbies.

Oh yeah, I went to the 2 Hollow. Show and a teenager said are those Reebok tabbies? And it was like, I was so embarrassed, my child. Yeah, at the. Unk convention. Absolutely unk convention. But yeah, fuck it. Thank you. I think you can not go see an archo for a year and you’re you’re fine. Totally. The interests come and go. Yeah, totally.

Oh my. God, totally. Yeah. There’s always stuff. Yeah, that’s awesome. OK. I think we’re just about at our time now I’m making this a segment, OK, this is a segment. I’m announcing this right now. Do you have any places in Sydney that you like to eat at? And I’m going to play the thinking sound effect, yes.

From Jeopardy. I love Jeopardy.

OK, I I’m, I’m not a huge fancy food person, but this is great. The two that came to mind immediately because I used to live on South Downing Street, right near Oxford Street, and I still work essentially on the same street. I love North Indian Diner. It’s yummy and it’s really cheap. The curries go so hard there.

South Downing St. North Indian. There’s another North Indian place, but I think it’s called North Indian Diner. It’s so good. Yeah, I think I know the. One. Yeah, I think we’ve been there. Before, Yeah, really good. So yummy. Simple, great. And the other one that stood out also on South Downing St. Boots darling, which is this like Indonesian cafe.

They go so hard, they’re so lovely. Coffee’s yummy, food is good. Oh, Boots Dowling. Not darling, no boots, darling. One word. Oh darling. I think it’s one of those incredible things like I think it used to be maybe some like gay boot shop or something like that on Oxford St. Those are those. The boots that everyone’s been telling me about, Yeah, but then.

Again, it’s like the guy who runs it is a very nice but like straight Indonesian man. And I’m like, why is the shop called Boots Darling? One word. Oh gosh. That’s so perfect. That’s so Sydney. Yeah, he’s. He’s he’s the best shout out tenders recommendation. Yeah, really good. You can get a meagerang. You can get these like crazy, like beef rendang sandwiches

just with like the yummiest. But they also have vegan options. I go with my vegan friend Marcus Whale all the time. Those are the two that stood out. And then my partner’s mum, who lives in Pecos and makes really good Filipino food, but that’s not for the public, so you can’t go to that. Not allowed. Banned. Fair enough. All right, well, she. Probably would cook for. Anyone who showed up but like, I

don’t want to blow up her. All right, we’ll get the address. Off the line, yes, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Cool. Well, thanks. So much for coming by the apartment. You. No thanks. All right, well, we’ll see you guys in a couple of weeks. Bye audience.

Show notes

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