6.15 Jason Phu talks

Transcript

Yeah, so race around the world. Up until Kate told me about it, I’d literally only knew it from an ad on the bus. I had no idea what it was about. So yeah, all these like young film makers, I guess they’re Australian in our one go around the world, new country every 10 days. And the game show is they’ve got to make a film about the place

and there’s like some different judges, like an old one and a young one. And then they like, it’s like a competition, like who made the best film in that 10 days? And the winner gets some. The winner gets like ATV show on ABC. Wow. Yeah, that sounds like fun. We. Should compete, we should compete they. Should let us in. Have they finalized all the

competitors? Yet. Yeah, yeah, we’re two episodes in. So it’s not too late, you’re telling me? You can’t be in on this season. What? But apparently. Why would I be interested in this story then? One of my mum’s friends was saying Claudia Carvin is on the show but as a judge and I was like, OK, I see. I saw her at an art gallery recently. Oh really?

At a studio show. I have some like serious Claudia Carvin like. Fucking deep cuts. We should get her wrong. But I guess I can’t say it. Why not? I’ll bleep it out.

She was at this thing and I was. I was too nervous to try and be like my mate Aiden’s dad, Nervous you. But I did see our the guest, who might be coming on in a second, gasbagging with her. Oh yeah, so like they’re fucking makes she. Seems cool, she’s got a really

nice house. She seems awesome Hung. Out with her kids, have I? Yeah. You broke his bow, remember? That was her kid. That was her kids bow. That was her kids. What sort of bow is that called? It’s called AI believe it’s called a compound bow. Matt broke Claudia Coven’s son’s

compound bow. That’s my claim to fame. If you ever wondered how I did so well in the fashion industry, it’s because I’m a nepo baby. Because I’ve got her bow. Like I should damage not talk too much shit about this person and their family because we’re going to go and like hang out with. By the time this comes out, we will have already come back from there. Oh yeah, true. Probably. Yeah, hopefully, yeah. Good not to date it.

What? Yeah, let’s let’s leave it ambiguous. So exciting bro. I was. I was so excited by that jazz record. I my heart was racing. Yeah, really good DJ ING this morning and really good chefing by me. Yeah, sure. You did good. Yeah, well, I kind of set that one up for you, but yes, you you try and set. Him up, I knock him. Down it was like an alley oop. I feel like it was. A massive alley oop and you

jumped up like Michael Jordan. You fucking passed it between your legs and then you slam dunked it. It was cool. I think of it as like a variation on a theme. Yeah, or like a homage to what you had cooked the night before. I was watching this on Instagram reel the other day. Stop me if you’ve heard this one before. I’ve just got an I’ve just received an e-mail one second. Hey, I’m outside.

OK, let me go. Hey.

Hey, nice to meet. You. Yeah. Thanks.

You lived in China for, I think you said, two years after you won the soul man. Is it? Yeah. Yeah, it was. Yeah. I lived in Chongqing, just, like, city of 34 million people. Wow. Yeah, a few friends had gone over and ‘cause my, my mum’s

side of family is from Beijing, I was like, I don’t really want to live with family. So I was like, I want to pick a random Chinese city I’ve never been to. So a few friends were like, Chongqing’s a spot. It’s really fun. So I moved there. I think Peter Nelson and Alice moved there, and me and Talia Arnett, who’s an Alice, moved there.

But yeah, I was able to live there with off the Solomon. I mean, my apartment was $15. Jesus fuck, that’s awesome. Which? Is awesome and I would never do that this now, but it was like one of the walls was missing in

the apartment and they were it’d been so filthy and unclean. Not from me from when I moved in. I’d never seen this before, but the the kitchen had stalatites. Stalamites. Stalatites. Yeah, Hanging. Hanging of black grease on the

top. Yeah. But I was like, oh, this is cool. I’m like a young kid and it’s grungy. But when I look back on it, I was like, oh, I just want to stay in a nice hotel. Now, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah, my friend. Were they like jiggly? No, they were quite solid because, OK, Also I discovered

really quickly, ‘cause I was like, oh, I don’t need a wall, ‘cause they had the steel rebars. Still shopping. Cool. But it was summer and then went into winter, and then, yeah, I realized how important the war was. Absolutely. That’s hilarious. Well, this answers the question. I was like 40 grand or so,

right? For the for the prize. I was like 2 years. That’s pretty good going. Well, it’s. Like how did he do it? It’s like a dollar a meal. They’re like eating out. Wow, 6 pack of beer is a dollar. Wow, nice A. Pack of cigarettes is a dollar so. Yeah, nice. Yeah, we’re just bumming around. That sounds amazing. And did you have a studio there? Yeah, I did. 2 residencies, I did DAC Studios, which is

Dimensions Art Centre, which is called something different and Organ House studios. And then I just lived in an apartment and I I floated around Asia. So I was going to change my working a bit. And then I went to Beijing to see family and then if I had a show in Sydney I’d just try and time all my work just so it was

like sort of fluid sort. Of were you like flying work back or like shipping it back or something or I know that’s. Not no I I would do something like that now, but I didn’t. This is going to sound silly. I didn’t really understand how to ship big things. I was like oh it must cost

$1,000,000 right? Right. Yeah, but I’m I’m now working in China a lot and cool like having to deal with shipping and possibly in the next 6 months shipping containers. So. Oh, it’s actually OK. Cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I remember when my

family moved here from Joburg, we had like a shipping container and we like we got here and then there was like this funny like pause of like 6 months or a long time. And then it was like, now we got all the chairs back. Like we had some random chairs. It’s like. But yeah, it was funny. Pause of like it took a long time. We were just talking about race

around the world, which neither of us have seen, which is quite famous for us, just the conceptual we like to talk about. Things the the TV show, yeah, yeah, the TV show, yeah, yeah. I I, I loved watching it as a kid because there’s always on, you know, I feel like I’m going to sound. So how old are you guys? 30 I’m thir I’m. 32. Not that much younger but it’s

just like now because I’m teaching first year through there. Are like 20. Yeah, it’s great. Yeah, I mean, they’re like, I could have been the father of some of them. You know, I’m like, this is very disturbing. And then when I talk about like, oh, you know, you guys read

newspapers, right? And they’re like, what would we like, what the fuck is that? And then it’s like, Oh yeah, free to air TV. And it’s like actually now a foreign concept. Whereas when I was teaching younger students, it wasn’t, you know. But anyway, like I used to watch Race Around the World ‘cause it was on Free to Air and I love, you know, I feel like your

mind’s always split where you are watching them being like, I wouldn’t do that. I would do the right thing and win the race, but half your mind’s also like no, I would just completely fuck off. Yeah, it is really fun shouting at the TV. I’ve been doing like, I’m sorry to bring this up and yet another fucking conversation, but I’ve

been doing this huge like I do like photo and video stuff, right? And I’ve, I’ve been given this like enormous editing job of editing a wedding video and I they gave me like 22 ish hours of video footage. 22. Hours and audio that I had to like go through like somehow and

yeah I’m just like I’m having that thing but you’re watching the video guy like and they kind of suck these guys and they’re like they’re doing this really annoying thing where they’re like just shoot 2 second little bits and I have to cut together this long it’s like a 2 hour video I’m cutting together and I’m like stop pressing the blocking button it’s like. They have a like a camera set up and a set up.

They did have a camera set up and they’re roaming cameras and they had drones and shit, but they’re they’re just doing everything. Wrong. And you’re gonna do like a one minute Instagram real cut and then like Peter Jackson extended cut 10 hours. You know. Exactly, Yeah. I’m doing the Peter Jackson cut. I’ve been working this entire

weekend on the Peter. Jackson work with the whole 1 ring to rule. Them all, you know, like, yeah. You could just have the script. In the wedding. You know, like, yeah. That’s so funny. There’s so many funny. I keep thinking of like laughing to myself, like if I had the time and if I wanted to, you could cut together like any story you wanted from this much footage. Like you can pick one like the

the the the groom’s mother and like cut together like a whole movie about her day, you know? Well, they did a really. I haven’t seen it, but someone alerted me to it. You know, it’s, it’s the football World Cup. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Xena Dean’s Azzan. They did a someone did a doco on him during a full game.

Yeah. Where they only focus on his figure, Right. And he coincidentally didn’t get that many passes that game. So it’s a full match of following him. And I think it’s in black and white. Wow. It’s really beautiful, actually. And 40 minutes because a lot of it, like sometimes when you’re walking around and the ball’s

not near you, like you’re looking at the floor and there’s all these little moments of reflection. Wow, What’s he thinking? Yeah. And it’s almost like no one else exists ‘cause he doesn’t come in contact with. That man. Oh, that’s nice. Did they put like music under it and stuff? I haven’t, yeah, I can’t. Just seen it. I think I’ve just seen clips from it, but it’s we. Should. That’s cool. Yeah, ‘cause. It’s like, you should find a random person in the wedding.

Yeah. And just followed them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Dude cut like Gerald’s cut, Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. I’m I’m working on for like. 9090 seconds or something in the each player, even if you’re in the whole game, in the whole game you actually have the ball for like but. If you Add all those 90 seconds. But the rest of it is like, you

know. They’re just walking around. Yeah. Yeah, Well, it looks just. Like do a lot of walking around. Yeah, yeah, yeah it. Looks like walking around, but it’s really fun. It’s all up here, it’s all up here. Tapping my head, I’m working on a cut of all the food that they that they filmed because they do that thing where you like sort of lurch in at the food and then like back and forth.

This is on the wedding video. What’s that cut? It’s like I’ll. I’ll I’ll have to show you how it’s like they’re like, you know, they get the wedding cake and then like film around it like, and then there’s like. You should ask them if you can use the footage for like our projects. I mean I. Probably will, yeah. I mean, I will. I will ask for sure, yeah. I’m always worried that you’re like, check this out. I’m always worried.

I’m like, bro, it’s too artistic. I was like, my God, you know what I mean? Who’s? Who’s wedding was it? It’s just some, I’ve never met them before. It’s like a client, you know, like like. A regular ass wedding, not an experimental wedding. Yeah, but I think there could be a market for that. I would say a mental wedding, a trendy wedding. The whole thing is like, pretty fucking trendy. Wedding. Did you go to the wedding?

No, I didn’t even film it. Yeah, yeah, I wasn’t there, but I’m editing it. I filmed a different one for this guy. But he got married twice. Sorry. I do feel like if I bumped into one of these people on the street, I would feel like starstruck. I’d be like Oh my God, congratulations bro. Because you never meet face to face. Never.

Met. Do you have to redact that? Yeah, I’m going to redact that. Is that an actual person? That’s a real Yeah, yeah. Yeah, OK, cool. I got that. On the I like this almost like a black guy’s going to get. Synergy where you’re like, hey,

that’s illegal. Yeah, that’s why I’m doing so well. Yeah, I’ve been doing this for a few years. I’ve actually, I’ve offered a friend of mine does fashion photography and I said if you ever go to a cool location, I will carry your bags. Just like because he goes to random places and gets sent

there. And I was like, he was in the middle of the desert somewhere in the world. I don’t really know. And it’s like, that’s so cool. And then he was like, yeah, except I got paid $500 to do it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s tricky. There’s a lot of small budgets floating around nowadays. Like when I got into it in like 20, I don’t know when I got into

IT 4. Or five years ago. Yeah, it was like, it was like just at the end of a big boom, but but at before that everyone was like living in the two 90s and 2000s where it was just like so much fucking money going. On all. These magazines had just, like, it was just rivers of money, Like they were just printing money and like, yeah. In the 90s. Yeah, and they had like, you know, everyone had like coke on

set and like those fucking huge hotel rooms and just every, everything was like as glamorous as you would imagine it to be. Yeah, I, I did a couple of interviews for advertising agencies and I was like saying like, oh, I’ve watched Mad Men before and they were like, no, it’s not. I was like, yeah, I know it’s not like that anymore.

And they were like, especially the long lunches and like every drink and every meal is accounted for. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. True. Every meal. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. How many drinks did you have? Yeah. You ever see? That’s funny. Yeah. It’s. It’s not like that anymore. They don’t make them like they used to. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it’s cool.

I’m I’m a big they don’t make them like they used to, guys that’s. True, that’s true. That’s like my main phrase. Work is weird, I haven’t worked in a long time now, but before that I was a teacher and you’re teaching now like you’re a. Yeah, or I’m sessional kofa. Oh cool. Which is you in a sub yard inside, But I still call it Kofa.

Yeah, US 2 actually. And then I’m sessional at Nas, but it’s first. Oh no, I’m doing certain years at Kofa right now. So yeah, like, I like teaching. Yeah. Did you get into teaching? I was like, I always wanted to teach and I always had like, big grand ideas about teaching. And I have like a bunch of

teachers in my family really cared about it. And I did it for a couple of years. What kind of teaching? I was teaching programming but. For A at university. And I was in a prison. In. Western Sydney, OH. Right. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so it was like kind of not really normal teaching. Yeah. But like, it was still like, you know, you still had your students and your, I don’t know.

Yeah. I think I decided that I’m not cut out to be a teacher. Like, I don’t think I could do it for 10 years or like I’ve got like family members and stuff that have been teaching for like 30 years, you know? Yeah, I also do a lot of kids workshops and I’ve done projects with schools over extended weeks.

And yeah, I’d have no idea how like primary school and high school teachers do it. Like it’s super fun, but I feel I’m only doing like a few hours a day. Yeah. And I don’t take anything home to Mark or anything, but I feel completely drained.

Fuck. Yeah. And even when they’re like, really lovely, Yeah, nice kids, yeah, it’s like your energy is completely drained. And then when there’s like, even one shit kid fucks up the whole class, you know? And then, yeah, I mean, quite a,

like high school is even harder. And yeah, quite a few of my friends teach at like, really rough high schools who, like, they really love teaching there, but it’s a lot harder when there’s like, chairs being thrown, things like that. And then universities like even it’s not easier, but it’s just

smaller classes, more resources. But even that is like, yeah, I, I came in having very high ideals, being like, I’m going to be a great teacher and I’m just going to instill all this awesome stuff into them. And then I was like, people just don’t listen, you know, to everything you say, which is

like, I I never listen to everything my lecturers say. So it’s like, yeah, it’s very, it was very humbling when I was like, I need to just remember every person sort of a different, you know, human being with different upbringings with like, yeah, and they don’t speak your language, you know? Absolutely, yeah. And it might take like a bunch

of goes. No, I mean, everything you said I feel yeah, that resonates with me. I was like, I had like 10 students, all adults, and I was like, how the fuck do you do like 4 different classes in a day of like 3017 year olds or 6? I couldn’t fathom it. Like I mean, obviously my environment had some extremes, but still it was like 10 adults who for the most part could like

listen pretty well and we taught the same subject everyday, you know what I mean? Like I just, I fucking honestly don’t know how these it’s like a vocation or something. It’s like being a chef. It’s like takes up your whole. I don’t know if you can be a full time like teacher. And something else. I don’t know. I mean, people do it, artists do it, but like maybe you have to

take like years off where like your teaching’s more in focus and practice is more in focus. I don’t know. I think you, I think you just learned a compromise, I guess, if you’re doing that full time. Whereas like I think when I feel like a tourist coming in and out of the teaching at university

where I’m like, OK, I’m ready. This is my one class I’m doing once a week for three hours. I put all my energy into it and I’m like, oh fuck. Like that’s not how I expected it to happen. I feel like it’s a full time job. You’re you get into a rhythm of it, you learn how to deal with things a bit easier.

Maybe, I don’t know, maybe. Yeah, You get a bit of trust, I think, because we would have people come in and do workshops and it was like that thing of people would be like, wow, it’s it’s this dude. This dude was actually really sick. His name was Cyrus. He would do like embodied meditation stuff for the guys who would like work. Around for programming, yes.

Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So the course was programming, but it was also like mindfulness and stuff just based on like the the students, like a lot of people maybe hadn’t, you know, gone to uni or finished high school. So you have these other elements just to sort of like, you know, help people not be like fuck and like throw. Their computer up. Yeah, yeah, programming. ‘S pretty hard already.

Yeah, I, I taught at, there’s a school in Redfin is like youth off the streets high school for like kids that were sort of like like doing it’s pretty hard or living on the street. And then we’d come in and do, they had like maths and they had

music, but we would came in to teach art and then, yeah, that was the thing we were taught. I was just like, hey, don’t think you need to teach them what you’ve come in to teach. Because if they can just sit there and just hang out and chat to you, then even that’s like amazing.

And I was like, oh, OK, I don’t need a, I’ve got something prepared. But if they want to just sit there and chill out, it’s just a place for them, you know, they’ve got fucking messy lives. This is a place they can sit for an hour and not be hassled or anything. Literally, yeah. Absolutely. So. So you’re teaching programming, you get someone in to do meditation. That’s cool. Yeah.

Yeah, no, absolutely. It was that when I had to like learn, I was like, OK, today’s not about like teaching this person like a for loop. It’s like what you just said it like we might end up just talking and like hearing about your life story. And that might not be an unsuccessful class. But in the beginning I’d be like, you know, this guy needs to learn a full loop. And I’d be racking my brain. I thought it was all about the

programming. But I suppose like all education in a way ends up being somewhat of a detour from the teachers original. Yeah. I mean, what type of programming were you doing? I was like JavaScript stuff. Oh, cool. I was. I’ve been trying out this. I mean, it’s built for kids, the Grasshopper Oh yeah app, and it’s very, very basic programming.

Yeah. And it’s great. Then it’s like, is it like scratch sort of related? I think it is. Yeah, I have no idea. Scratch is like a similar like coding for kids. Yeah, build blocks. And it’s like, ‘cause we learnt it when computers first came out. Cool and Grasshopper for like I think 4 weeks and I was like oh

this is pretty cool because like it was MS-DOS cool and then yeah, Grasshopper is like a app. This isn’t a plug so. Sponsored. But yeah, yeah. It’s not where grasshop. Yeah, there.

Was a bunch of this week and there was just a huge stack of these black, it was like snapbacks black and then a baby blue bill and we had like kids code camp all over them. Cool. And I see these everywhere, but it was just this wonderful big stack and me and Adam were laughing like none of the kids wanted their code mentor

snapbacks. What the hell? I often if I’m working with like sometimes I do projects, which is like working with 100 kids, I’ll go to reverse garbage because I need 100 units of a particular thing. And what I find really funny is like, yeah, you got those business things or code camp or whatever, but you there’s often

like, you know, care for the environment and it’s like 100 coasters coated in plastic. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s just like climate change conference and it’s like 50 T-shirts and you’re like, wait a second, wait. I don’t think that was like a great thing to like, do.

That’s so funny. Damn it, we fucked up. We should start. We should start that whole thing again. We should start the climate activism. Thing from school we could do that again we. Should start from scratch, yeah? We’re not smoking or vaping so. We dodged a bullet. Yeah, we dodged. We mean like you 2 are starting we’ve we’ve. Just stopped smoking.

As you can see by this lovely balloon. Yeah. Nicotine replacement therapy on the. Table. Oh no, I thought you were starting some like climate change company or something. No, you mean like you mean the world should restart? You’ve got an idea, I. Got a funny idea? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, Jason, we can. I’m not a good if you come up

with any ideas, I get to keep them because it’s my flat. So yeah, I just. Think this is Yeah. That’s how the contract works, yeah. Yeah, you. Don’t realise but just by viewing that doc we sent you before you signed, there’s a lot of stuff in my SO. Clown shoes for horses. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we’re. Gonna be real and they squeak every time.

I live in Chongqing for 1000 years off of this business.

Is it still that cheap over there?

Well in I feel like in China in general like now there’s a lot of people going there yeah because of the walk in visas used to be quite yeah I wanna go annoying visa there like even my mum who’s born there would we’d both had to line up over 2 days yeah yeah. So like, apply for the visas and

pay for it and stuff. So now you can just walk in and people are getting a lot of stuff made there as well in the factories. So yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Is that is Chongqing the one with the enormous train station with like that huge train station? I feel like there are a lot of big train stations. Oh no, I think there are a lot

of big train stations. Yeah, everywhere. Stupid question, I understand that. Oh, no, no, no, no. I didn’t mean that. I meant like you probably there’s a lot of very like, there’s a lot of enormous translations which are very fascinating. I’m kidding around. Yeah, I know. It’s cool. I I’m like fascinated with China and I’m, I’m really excited to

go. Like I’m thinking in the next year or two, I should definitely try it. I want to go. You want to. Go oh, where are you guys going to? Go. Well I’m really into tea so I want to go to the South and do like some tea stuff. I follow a few tea guys. Oh, do you? They’re living over there like. Yeah, they’re, they’re sort of learning about it or they’re just promoting.

Western guys or are they Chinese? Both because it’s like, I think there weren’t that many Chinese people on Instagram for a while, and now it’s sort of exploded. True. Because you can just use it over there. Even though it’s, you know it’s not. Technically banned.

Yeah, but people just use it and they’re promoting their businesses. It’s how I found a lot of the. So I’ve been going over helping different friends translate when they go to factories and stuff. But even now it’s like most of the factories have people speaking English.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Are these guys that you’re translating for, are they getting into business or are they artists like getting stuff made or? Or are their friends like getting stuff made and so? For business for. Stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for business. A couple of them are artists, but it’s sort of also a fun way

to go with a friend. Yeah, I would think so too. I’ve had a couple of mates who are like, hey, can you actually properly help me and we’ll pay. Yeah, yeah, cool. For a bunch of the stuff as well. Cool. Which is I’m like, yeah, sure. That sounds like a great deal. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And it’s funny because like there, there are people that speak English at the factories, but there’s all these like, I’m not a good business person or a

natural business person, but there’s a whole bunch of tiny cultural things which I didn’t think like were important, but were really important. Like people were when they sat down, my mates are ready to be like, OK, so how many units? And I was like, hey, like we’re just, we’re just chatting.

We’re just going to drink tea for an hour. OK. Yeah, yeah. And so they with, well, I mean, we’re sitting in front of the tea table and we just literally drink tea for an hour before, you know, you chat about anything. Cool, I love that. Or even like that, you know, setting a meeting sometimes is irrelevant. Like set a 10:00 meeting and then my mate’s like, hey, we got

to get there for 10. I said they’re not going to be there or awake even. That’s funny. Like so we’re getting to the factory, knocking on the door and then he’s calling them and then like there’s no one working in the factory. Everyone’s asleep and the boss is like, oh, how come you’re there?

It’s like, oh, we set a 10:00 meeting. It’s like, oh, I’m in bed. I’ll I’ll get there at like 110 is one. Yeah. And then we get there at 1:00 and then walk into his office and he’s like, hey, what are you guys doing here? It’s like, oh, we had like a meeting set and he’s like, oh, that’s cool. What do you want to drink some

tea? You know, like. That’s awesome. Wow, that sounds like a nice way of doing business. I I dream about getting something manufactured cheaply overseas and made and like imported but I can’t come up with my clown shoes for horses. Like genius ideas? Well, it’s also funny because it’s like you can definitely get something cheaply made, but now

the industry over there has completely shifted. It’s gotten sophisticated, hey? Well it’s also I think the perception of Chinese manufacturing is cheap was because people were asking them to make something for that price for sure and cheap, but that now it’s completely shifted to

really high end like highly skilled labour. Yeah, like iPhones are made in China. In fact, they can’t even afford to keep making them there because the Labour got so expensive. Well, the car manufacturing and electric car manufacturing, it’s over there. I mean, like, I feel like

Western governments fucked up with that when they listen to, you know, fossil fuel lobbyists who are just like, electric cars are bad and they’ll make your estrogen rise or whatever. They were trying to, like, sell them, you know?

You know, you shouldn’t, you shouldn’t have these. And so the market’s all in China and that sort of thing. Yeah. But it’s been interesting, like, because it’s like a whole different side to like going to the factories instead of going to the major cities sort of thing. So yeah.

Yeah, I, I love that stuff. Like we, I recently did a trip across Europe with a friend and we kind of sort of Rd. tripped like from Istanbul to London. And it was like not necessarily trying to hit every major city along the way. And like, yeah, the stuff you see when you’re just like going in a in that direction, like whatever. It’s so fun. Like now I don’t want to do any

more major cities like when I travel. Yeah, or just having some, like I’ve said, there’s a bunch on the pod, but I went to Hanoi like to go to an art school for like a month and it was like such a so nice to have like, I don’t know, just like some secondary anchor. Like that’s not just like go to the city or go to this tourist. Like. And we always talk about like if

I was to go back to Europe or something, like I would love to have like it’s like I want to do a masters or something. Because the way that you get to see the city, you know, you have that in otherwise you’re always sort of stuck. You’re there’s always a sort of bit of arms length. Yeah, what? What were you doing in art school there? It was really cool. It’s like a little, well, I just basically started drawing and

painting in the last year. Before that it was like mostly writing, but there’s this really sick shout out Art Judah, Hanoi, tiny little art school. Like, it’s just a really beautiful minimalist studio. And a bunch of the students who studied at the Fine Arts Academy, like, basically set it up. Oh, that’s nice.

So yeah, it’s. Fucking awesome. I can’t. I’m dying to go back next year. I want to do 3 months. But yeah, I was basically just doing like very traditional style, like draw a hexagonal prism in in graphite and shade it and then. The guy would walk. Around behind me and like, you know, slap me on the hands and be like look at this angle and I

was like, sorry dude. So yeah, that was cool. But he you know, it goes from you can do the very traditional skills base, but they have a contemporary. Perspective as well. So the scenes just set up like a little art school that’s fucking. Good. I loved it. Yeah. And there’s like travellers and locals and yeah, no, I really liked it.

Sounds like so much. Fun. I can’t wait to go back. I don’t think they teach watercolor, but maybe I’ll have to learn oil.

Yeah, yeah, that’s The thing is like I’ve never really known what it’s like to have like a studio to go to regularly for like a period of time. Like I just, I dream of having like a photo studio or something like. Even if I would have got the one in Saint Peter’s. But it’s not yours. It’s not my and I can only go there every like shout out Sydney dock room, big fan, huge

fans. Huge fan. I still need to print that but. We only run the dock room every like couple of week every every other weekend. But yeah, it’s like so jealous of like you fucking artists who just like don’t need like that much space to like do AI mean I don’t know what do you have a studio at the moment or? No, I haven’t seen you in like 3 years sort of thing.

So I guess I shifted, I mean it’s not out of like choice. I put every, I put all the money that I would have used for Cdr rent into like overseas travel, which is like, I guess you’d

call it like professional development, you know, going to art fairs and I’m showing in and doing residencies and things like that. But yeah, I paint pretty quickly if it’s my commercial side of practice. And then when I work with institutions, if for instance,

I’m doing insulation, I try and build everything in parts and have everything arrive and have an extended insulation and go, hey, do you have a workshop space or education space? And you know, the pitch is often people I can do talks in the

space, which is and then I can use the space room up. So I try and have everything fit together perfectly at the same time I. See, I see. Yeah, yeah. Without having to get like a studio rent for like 6 months in the build up or something. Is that what you mean? Yeah, I, I have a lot of friends

who are just extremely generous. Whenever they go away or they’re between shows, they know I often need a space. That’s cool. So they’ll just send me a message being like, hey, I’m away for a couple weeks. That’s so sweet, I love that. Like and then so I’ll get if it’s painting, I’ve got 1 suitcase that fits all my paints

and paint brushes and tools. Awesome. So I just have the canvases arrive on a day they leave and then I wheel it in, set up and then do all my prep work before that and then paint the show in two weeks and then have the delivery pick up to go to the gallery.

Yeah. So I just time everything. I love it. It’s a very. Impressive. That’s. Great. But I mean, it’s not it’s. Not time sensitive. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it’s also, I’m someone that works with deadlines, yeah, but I don’t think it’s a good way to work like I have had.

I’ve been really lucky. I’ve had the Courage work studios before and Gertrude Cool studios. And when I had the Gertrude ones, the first time I ever had a stable studio, I think I moved 10 studios in five years before that. God.

So yeah. And it’s just Sydney things. But yeah, when I had the Gertrude Studios, I was like, oh, like a studio practice completely changes because there’s no deadline. Yeah, I could just sit there and think about stuff. Yeah.

Whereas I was just used to like just going, going, going. And then when I, yeah, I haven’t had a CDO for three years, so I’ve just gone back into that rhythm. But I feel like, yeah, it’s pretty important for me to go and be be there in person for projects I’m doing overseas as

well. And it’s that thing you said, it’s like, I mean, it’s not just like networking, professional development, but like call to travel and meet people. And it’s not like 24/7 work. I’m like going out to eat and seeing the sights and stuff so. Oh my God, totally. Oh, travel’s the best. I’m constantly scheming on how I can how I can make this a month here and a month there, and it’s

great. But yeah, shout another shout out to Adam. He’s let me set up a studio in his garage. He just moved to Marrickville. He’s got a massive garage. Friend of the show and former. Guest as well. It’s my first ever studio I guess and it’s fucking awesome. Yeah, it’s friends. It’s like, I like, I feel like you don’t need to say this, but

I tell students like, hey, like, you know, you should make friends. Or like I feel sorry because like I feel like a lot of my students, they don’t drink or go out, which I think yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is like, I think not drinking alcohol is a good

thing. Sure, but they don’t socialize. And it’s, you know, arguably, even though I think it’s OK, it’s not a great city to just find public space to socialize in and do stuff that’s, you know, it doesn’t cost money. But I think, yeah, I don’t remember learning very much at

art school, but all the friends I made and they’ve all helped me out, like, like, I wouldn’t be anywhere near where I am without sort of all the help from my friends sort of thing. So yeah. But it’s funny telling a student like, hey, you need to make friends. You should. Be going to the pub more.

Yeah, but she. Was saying you were like shocked to find out that they like weren’t going to the dollar or whatever. But even like I said, hey, you guys, can you guys should go to a show together, Yeah. Or go get a yogurt together, go for a walk or just hang out. Yeah. Chat to each other also, not just listen to me, like, chat to each other.

Yeah. Complain about me in class, you know, and like, absolutely. That’s what that guy you’re doing. Plenty of that I can. Teach Yeah, true. Do you feel like they’re they’re really not going out that much? Like like you’re worried about this generation? Well, yeah, I just feel like it’s it’s maybe it’s like a few flow on effects.

I feel like if you go out with your friends, you go out with people you don’t really know from your class and drink, you often shout at each other and get in arguments. You break that barrier of getting into an argument with a person. Then when you’re back in class, it’s way easier to be involved in critiques and be a bit more

critical as well because you already shattered at this person last night. You know, true. I feel like, yeah, if. But it doesn’t mean I’m not saying everyone should go out and get drunk. You know, there’s probably also, I think in a few generations, people like you drank that poison.

Water. I don’t really drink, but I do have to admit that I think it is fucking good way to meet new people. I really do think it is. Constantly grappling with this thing. And like, I mean, I’ve kind of settled, settled. I’ve kind of settled on my like attitude towards it, which is that OK. I like, I have kind of pretty much stopped smoking. The bet is still on Aiden, but

like I. What is a bet?

I nearly got a fucking big slap in the face the other day. So the bet is that if if I smoke in the next three months from that day, like a week ago, that he gets to slap me. Oh. Really hard, but it’s a full. Yeah. What was it? Just even one cigarette? No, it was. I was more generous. I said if you if it’s like a full on relapse. I’m fucking bad. Like 1 is oh like 10 smokes. Yeah, like if I go out to

fucking yeah. Wait, so you’re allowed 10 cigarettes? No, it’s more about. Like A10. No, No 10. It’s like a spirit. It’s like if you relapse if you become a smoker again. Yeah. Then I get a big slap. Then you get a slap. But like. But if you had one, I still think that you shouldn’t have one but. I’m trying not the. Slap is a big yeah yeah reward

for me. Yeah, to give the slap. Right, the slapper. Yeah, Anyway, the one I’m making is that, I mean, I feel like if I if I get to live to the age of 100 because I didn’t drink, but I don’t get to make any new friends, it’s like I don’t that last five years is going to fucking suck. Like, yeah, maybe even 20.

Years or at the least, if you’re not going to drink, I think you need to be pretty fucking like intentional. Like I’ve gone to the pub plenty of times. I’ve had like heaps normal which is like trendy now and you’ve got to put in extra work to be blah blah blah blah blah blah. You do have to like still be. But I think. I had six months off like last year where I was like, even if

I’m tired and don’t want to go home, I don’t wanna, I don’t wanna be the person. I’m not gonna talk about them. I’m not drinking and I’m gonna stay up till 4:00 AM. Yeah, yeah. And just drink Coca-Cola and butter. No one’s gonna know. Like no one should know that you quit drinking. Like that’s in physical at the pub. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I have had friends before who are like a little bit of it. No, I shouldn’t say, but a bit

of a pain in the ass about it. Not me, brother. Yeah. You’re all right. I’m pretty. No, but like, I don’t think it’s not about I. Just don’t come drinking. I just don’t leave that. I think it’s just the easiest thing to go. Hey, oh, like if you’re in Percy and you’re shy, you don’t really know to do. You can do that. But it’s also like, hey, you

guys can go to the museum together. Absolutely. You can go absolutely to the library, yeah. Go to a show together it. Just seems so far, I’m very much like what the elderly millennials call golden retriever energy. Like, I do want to talk to every single person in Istanbul when we get there, you know? And like at the pub, I’m like, can I just talk to everyone? We just talk.

Yeah. So I find it hard to understand when people are like. Ah, like socializing, like I don’t want to do that. And I’m like. It’s hard and. It’s I’m like why? Why not? I don’t understand. That it. Just gets you so many wonderful things, like in your life. I don’t know. Yeah. But uni used to be like about that at some point. And now like, yeah, I mean, I guess like arts as well. Like I studied arts and at the

time I wasn’t very interested in working. Whereas like, sometimes like, I didn’t care about what job it was going to give me. Do you know what I mean? Like I wasn’t there for. Oh, right. Like I wasn’t there to get qualified as an engineer so I can go and you know what I mean? So that made it seem even more like I was like, oh, that’s why I’m here.

Used to like meet you and. Yeah, exactly. It was fun. I mean I remember finishing uni being like damn there wasn’t quite enough socializing for my likes and that was back in before. From the Gold Coast to Sydney to go to uni. And I was surprised because I guess like I didn’t really realise what uni would be in my head. I thought like it would be more like the UK or America where

like everyone had moved out and everyone was like new. But I was like everyone still lives at home and everyone already knows their people. Not everyone. But like it was my first introduction to Sydney and people like what high school did you go to? And I was like, from like, the Gold Coast, like, we don’t really talk about high school like, in this way. I think that is a like very uniquely Australian thing as

well, just you know, or Sydney thing that you would drive. Like most of my mates, I grew up, we still drive an hour and a half one way to go to work. Yeah. You know, I’ve got students coming from up and down the coast. Yeah. And I, I can like it’s, yeah. I don’t guilt them for not

hanging out, but because sometimes they’re like, I have to travel 2 hours to get home. I’m like, yeah, fair enough. Like you’re excused from can. We just do a cheer at the pub. I remember there was like a real, I felt like there was a real formality to my first year. Like when I did literature, all I wanted to do was talk about like passions and how this made

me feel and like how Matt and I would talk about like we would get drunk and talk about art at a party. And I was like, why are my chutes not like this? Like my chutes are so fucking dry in comparison to like when we’re talking about art it just like. I don’t know. Well, that’s The thing is that’s what I want them to experience. Not, not me, you know, the dry

Tudor. I want them to go to the pub and and talk to each other. Yeah, absolutely. Also say stupid things to each other, you know, say things that are the best bet, like and argue with each other sort of thing. We’ve not this imposing, you know, figure that’s like, oh,

the tutor and the lecturers, we can’t say anything stupid. It’s got to be all correct. Or even the space like the tutor, but also just like I’m at. Yeah, yeah, whatever. For this art like I’m at, I have to be intelligent, yeah. But I guess, yeah, that was a big thing that I. Wish I do like I definitely don’t make them drink, but on the final assessment, because I

need 2 hours with the work after we do the crits, I do just go hey, because they have to leave and come back and collect their work. I go. You all have to go as a class to the pub, the nearest pub and you can’t you can’t like break off into groups.

You have to go. You can go get a Coca-Cola or a Sprite or whatever but you have to go and you have to come back in two hours and collect your work. Also you can go get pissed but just leave and chat to each other in a non class. Environment, I love it that’s. Cool, that’s a fun moment as well because you’re literally

isn’t that like the peak of the semester? Yeah, not have not have me there. I love. This, I love this. I’m glad that you feel that way, like not be in the classroom because I actually wrote like a sort of weird conceptual poem about this in first year. Oh, go on. No one like got it. I, I can’t. It was actually we just had my poetry lecturer on the show.

Yeah, we had his old. Poetry it was. Really. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What do you mean poetry teacher? Do you know Toby Fitch?

But, but did you, did you learn in I mean? It’s like creative writing. At UCID. Oh wow. It was like the first year they brought it back because they were like, undergrads are not allowed to do creative writing, so it was only for masters. Oh, right. Oh, yeah, that one’s cool. That’s got like, they’re really more experimental visual work. Yeah. But it was like the first year

that they let undergrads do it again. And so we’re all writing. I see. And you don’t remember your poem you wrote. I don’t this is like 10 years. Ago. That was 10 years ago. Yeah. I can read you some poetry, though. I just wrote. But yeah, I remember writing a poem about, like, it was essentially the gist was like, oh, this is artificial. And I feel stifled in this

classroom and like, don’t you know how big and beautiful my feelings were? And like everyone thought it was, was like, like no one, you know, maybe the poem just wasn’t good enough, but it was like the teacher didn’t even he’s like, what are you talking about? This is a completely normal environment. Like there is no weird dynamic. But I felt it so strongly. I felt like I was like stifled

by. That’s what I mean. Like I would have as the lecturer probably gone. That’s a fucking stupid. Poem. Damn right. But I want the students to be able to like, I would not say that, but I I want them to have to like, say those things to each other and go like, wow,

that’s sick. You know, I feel that way as well. Yeah. And not have me there. Yeah. With my. That’s a dumb poem. Exactly. Yeah, it’s like the when the boss walks out of the room, like, and everyone’s like, oh, like exactly. The boss has to walk out of the room. Sometimes interesting. Yeah, I really like that. Yeah, teaching is weird like that, and the crit sound really interesting.

We had Tango Conway on who teaches drawing at Nas and drafting or architecture at USID. Yeah, like. Architectural drafting. Yeah, and she was talking about, like, people crying and crits and stuff. And I was like, because I’ve never really had a crit. All I’ve done is, like, submitted to a poetry journal. And it’s either like it’s just

like declined, declined. I’m actually, I actually have the opposite of that. I think we’re talking to Steph as well about like I the crits. It’s really hard to get my crits to be. I don’t need them to be nasty but just like more critical. Yeah, and I think the the crazy

thing is like, you know what it’s like when there’s like a room full of artists or you and your friends, like people are pretty fucking honest, like behind closed doors. Well, we our crits were brutal when. Yours were. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So our our lecturers were not. We were used to that, you know,

and the this, it was sort of the scenes where like, yeah, people, at least one person would cry a class sort of thing when, when I was in uni, which like, I don’t want people to cry, but it’s just like maybe cry from having too many emotions. That’s a that’s a great word. But yeah. I think it’s cool. It’s important to me to separate

because I think I was like blocked from making an art for a long time and I was like had lost my confidence and I would never. That’s not the purpose of the like it’s like I’m kind of almost like I fucking love you as a human like this is so beautiful that your soul made this artwork like and it’s incredible your. Soul made it out onto the. Paper your soul made it out onto the paper and you try and like I love you but it’s like embedded

below every critique but like if we want to talk about like this is a piece like I think this that and the other yeah but yeah I don’t want to like beat people back into The Cave where they like go and get a nine I. Always say to them, it’s just like it’s this is the perfect time to like get these critical

thoughts in where it’s like what you’re making is irrelevant at the moment, You know, because you’re not in your career, no one’s going to remember this thing. So actually, if you are someone that’s shy or it’s embarrassed, it’s like this is a great time to be embarrassed because it’s,

I mean, even the first five years of your career post uni, no one’s going to remember what you did. It’s a perfect time to just make, you know, all those poems about your big feelings. Absolutely. And get people, get your friends as well to tell you this is like, yeah, because I always like made sure to keep like keep

sending those friends who are really critical, but in a nice way, like my work. And for them to be like, this is like the worst thing I’ve ever seen. But like also understanding, like taking, I always say you got to take in that. And you can just reject it as well. But you have to part of your.

I think what also I try to say to students is that I have a responsibility as a lecturer, but also students. And this is across not just art school, but any students learning anything. It’s like, I think they’ve, I think you need to become, you know, a conglomerate where you

sell a degree and then you just pass them through. But, you know, traditionally university is a place of exchange and learning and that we’ve forgotten that students have a responsibility as well. And that is to like, just listen and take in criticism. Yeah.

And learn and change because the whole point is you’re supposed to change yourself there. Yeah. Supposed to change what you’re doing. Otherwise, why do you need it? Why do you need a degree? Why are you getting into heck’s that if you already know what’s happening, You know, like, yeah, expensive. So I say you gotta take in all this criticism.

You can reject it all, but you have to take it in and say, OK, I’m sort about it for a SEC. And I think your criticism is stupid, which is what I do with my friends. I send them the artworks and they’re like, I don’t like this. I’m like, for this reason, I’m like, it’s not really a valid point. Yeah, but I thought about it for

a SEC, you know, so. That reason, I don’t care about that reason, but if you hit it on this reason, I’d be like, fuck, like that’s exactly what I was trying to do and I’m missing that and that’s all. Like I’ve missed the point. Yeah, that’s interesting. Is it different across the different unis like my stereotype is? OK. Yeah, yeah.

I think there were a lot of cliches when I was in art school because I went to Kofa, and now I think our circle had a lot of SEA students and a lot of Nassuns as well, and I think it was very different back then. It was more I think that

students are like Grangia and the Kofa students were.

There was way more film and photo kids as well in Kofa. But now, I mean, the UNI’s completely shifted Kofa to an applied design school basically, for better or worse. What? You mean by? That well I guess they have the makerspace, the robotics

department, the textiles and printmaking department have been sort of synchronised to help with like applied textiles and the textile department. And I think all these things form a role within a broader education system when you have

something like National Arts School as a foil as like still teaching traditional drawing. But the students I get from Kofa now. And also, I think this is actually a good seeing like a third of my classes not from the

Fine Arts stream they’re from, they’re doing electives from the main campus. That’s. Interesting I. Think so I’m getting engineers and doctors and stuff who have a completely different concept of art and the kids are a bit more straight from HSC orientated.

Like, how do I maximize my score? And I’m like, hey, this degree is useless. Yeah, this is not. You can’t use this degree for anything like you. The point of having access to this degree is having access to all the facilities, the

technicians, the lecturers, not just me, like all your lecturers who have all different viewpoints, completely contradictory viewpoints as well, which is really great.

I mean it feels like all too easy to get tongue tied and stuff when you start talking about like the privilege of, you know, certain privileges and how you think about them and rank them like oh time to make work. Or you were even allowed to pick a non allowed, however that means economically or like in

your soul, like I was allowed, like the fact that I didn’t have to think about an employed job, but I just meant that I was like a barista until I was 30. But like, I don’t know, like it’s interesting. You can get pretty and I’m sometimes they’re just like, fucking just go make the work. Like don’t worry too much about whether you’re allowed and you can wear this. It’s just like, God, it’s just

there’s plenty of rich people who don’t even think of making art. They just go I. Do get that question more and more now like I’ll do have a soon say I want to make this. Do you think I’m allowed to? And I I just I sort of just go Oh well, why do you think you are an aunt? And like you need to actually

think through that. Obviously, if it’s like a completely fucked up thing, I’ll be like, hey, I just don’t think you should do that. But generally I will go like, it’s because this won’t be the last time you ever ask yourself. And and also it’s a good thing you asked. And I think it’s just, it’s there’s nothing wrong with

asking, but you need to understand it intrinsically. And also it’s good you brought it up with your lecturer, but also bring it up with your mates and go, what do you think? You know, because I have one viewpoint as well. Sure. But yeah, I mean the money thing’s funny because I always tell students as well because I

try to introduce, it’s not part of the course but like professional practice stuff into third year and just things like commercial galleries, contracts, museums. But yeah, I think there is a huge issue with the sort of

romanticisation of an artist set. It’s like, oh, you don’t need to think about money, just paint. And it’s like, yeah, maybe pre GFC, like people doing sell out shows. But also the two things I always say is that the students or the your fellow artists that are telling you not to worry about money, likely they don’t have to

worry about money. And the other thing I always say is why does every other person in your life have to worry about money and you don’t? And like, why does a Baker or a doctor have to worry about money? Like what? What amazing privilege did you

come upon in this artist degree where you’re like, I don’t even think about money. Like that’s the difference. It’s just like, well, no, you do. Obviously if you know the word sell out or you know an over commercialisation of things I can understand and you don’t

need to chase that money, but sure you do need to think about like sure, how are you going to pay the rent? Yeah, it’s funny because I remember like professional practice was like, I don’t, I don’t know if it was like I think it’s gotten more popular or especially that framing. I don’t know this could be correct me if I’m way off, but

like, yeah, when my friends and stuff were going to Cove for like 10 years ago, like it was coming up and I guess I at the time, like I’m 17 or 18 and I was like, oh, that sounds like kind of stupid. Like for me in when I was studying, I didn’t want I wanted it to be like pure, I guess because I was idealistic and I was 18 and then it was funny

when I was like 22 or 23, I was like, shit, they didn’t prepare me for this at all. Like this is fucked. I wish I had a but I wouldn’t have listened at the time. Like all I wanted to do was like read the stuff and and write and you know what I mean? So it’s interesting. Whereas I think now kids are a bit more just because of the state of the world and economy. Like even that 10 years ago I

was allowed to be that silly about, but you know, I ended up having to fucking learn programming and go work corporate for the last five years or six years. But I was also just going to say like for myself, I think that I guess I’m drawn to like just certain things I won’t experience. Like I’m just like, OK, I probably won’t have a family. I won’t have a house.

I ride my bicycle. And that’s some of the ways that I don’t have to worry about money, whereas some other people, and I’m choosing that I would rather do my art and you know what I mean? So a lot of artists do that as well, I guess, right? Or go live somewhere cheaper or. I think part of it is like a bit of preciousness in the narrative

around what an artist is. This idea, they’re sitting in a room alone for years and come up with this one genius thing, which I actually try and strip that preciousness when I’m teaching. Go like, hey, that’s not how it works, you know, and that’s not how it works for anyone doing

any job. It’s, you know, even the idea of like, I need my space to think and do this thing. I’m like, well, you know, you, you do. And in a utopian society, which we’re all hoping to go towards

where capitalism is destroyed, you know, I do. People should have time and spare time to think and relax. But I always say like, you know, what about a surgeon who’s about to do your surgery, who’s just done a 24 hour surgery? Shouldn’t they have time to relax?

But they don’t, you know, shouldn’t anyone, any worker like what? What is the thing that you’ve decided makes you special that you need time to come up with this idea? And what is this idea you’ve come up with? Like is it that great that you needed, you needed, you needed a month to like come up with this?

You drew a dog, man. Like like did you really need a month for that? Yes, yes, I did. Yes. But my thing isn’t to, it’s like purposely being contradictory about it because I do think in

a, you know, utopian world, we do have time to just relax. We do have an hour lunch break and that’s not 15 minutes. We, we do have multiple smoke over breaks. We can’t just go for a wander in the middle of the day. I think that’s like, well, it’s how people used to exist until

capitalism came. But I think also the reality of the situation is we’ll hit them harder if I just say like, hey, you don’t actually have this luxury. You need to actually work quicker because and even volume,

so often they’re like, oh, but I just want to make this one thing perfectly. Yeah. And I’m like, well, big. Mistake, Big mistake, Mr. I just I you can you have all the time in the world after you leave you need to, but right now I need you to make 100 fucking things I keep. Hearing this, this is good. Everyone’s just saying like, make a hundred of them, make 10.

Make just keep like don’t worry. Just like go be, just go and make the paintings and walk away and come back tomorrow and make, yeah. Because more isn’t better. But when you are, you know, doing a show. Obviously this doesn’t apply to most artists, but you do

sometimes have to fill a space. You know, when you approach for a museum show, you know, it’s just giving them that sort of rote learning discipline where it’s just like, hey, you, you have that skill so that when you leave you can do a hundred of one thing, but you have the choice to do one thing.

Yes, really well as well, so. And also like if you are gonna do 100 things, like, I mean, I know what it’s like for you guys, but for me, I love and it enables me to it enables me to present like a much better body of work If I’ve got it’s a choice to exclude some stuff. Like it actually is like amazing

when you feel like you’ve just got enough. Like if it’s a 10 painting, so you’ve just got exactly 10 paintings. Like I don’t paint, but like I would, I would hate that 9th painting. Like fuck, I wish I’d done 20 and then I could only pick 10 that I have. Exactly. Yeah, that’s how it feels. I’m like lagging on applying for this residency because I know that I’ll have to. I’ll be squeezing like, you know, I’ll be like, oh, like

trying to bring a shitty painting up to the standard instead of being like, fuck, kill my darlings. I wish I could include this, but it’s the 11th. Yeah, it’s a good point. But yeah, I do really like that overall take. It reminds me of like this photographer who told me when I was a kid, we were like working on the door at some weird IT event. And I was like, I’m never going to get a job, man.

And he was like, you know, he semi successful artist, but he was doing the same job as me and he was 40 and I was, you know, 18. And he was like, listen, kid, like, get a job. Like get a career, Yeah. Or something that works for you. And I really do like that idea, because even if you give professional practice the best advice, only what tiny percent of the students are going to

make a decent. I do give them that statistic as well. You know, like one, probably one student out of every class will have a career that’s financially viable in the arts. And I’ve got made to way more successful on paper than me in as practising artists, but you

know, they’re maybe doing more insulation performance, sound based works which are completely, you know, I have a painting practice as well, which makes it easier for me sort of thing. So it is really difficult and I don’t think enough people know that’s like a lot of friends had

a career and like as doctors or in finance or whatever and moved into arts when there were 40 after they paid off a bunch of stuff, you know? No, I like the idea of just like reminding us that I get for me right now, I needed to like take

a break from the corporate stuff because I think I was at risk of like losing ever being an artist. But I like the idea that if we like, yeah, try and dispel the notion that we can, it’s either one or the other. Like we can structure our lives in such a way that I can do a bit of paid work. And like, we’re always talking about this. I’ve run businesses before, you

know, but I’m just trying to find that balance. But. It’s also, I kind of liken it to it’s like if you’ve never done a job, you’ve never really lived that life outside the arts. It’s kind of like politicians used to be workers. Well, in Australia there’s a history of workers, you know, the long tradition of labour,

you know, becoming politicians who’d worked and we’re tired of seeing the struggles of the working class sort of thing. I think, you know, that applies to the arts in a way where, you know, you shouldn’t have. I just don’t trust someone who’s gone to an art high school, straight to uni, no other job

than doing art, you know. But yeah, I mean, I mean, also with that like preciousness, like with making that one thing, it’s like, I also tell students, it’s like for me, I always say it’s the, it’s like that’s the that’s your ego because you no

one is ever able to see the mistakes that you are able to see. So are you just making that artwork for yourself then? If no one else can experience or see that mistake, just get on with it and make a hundred more, you know? Yeah, it sounded. But also, this is my. This is what I always say.

It’s just like, this is my advice. I’m one lecturer. I’m one artist. You’re gonna meet. There might be 100. Who’s like, no, the dog. Yeah, yeah, dog down. Absolutely. I think there will be people who listen to this being like, that’s completely wrong. Absolutely. You’re a fucking idiot. You need to just hone in on this thing man.

Did you hear what he said on that show? And all those comments can go. Also, if you look at my artwork, it’s, it’s pretty evident it was made in like 20 minutes and like, I’m like, I didn’t fix any of those mistakes, you know, like. All right, guys, that’s all we’ve got time for today. Shout out in the comments if you

want to hear Jason back on the show. Jason, it’s been such a pleasure having you. Thank you so much. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Good to hear you, Jason. Thanks for coming. Home. All right. We appreciate your feedback. Please leave us a nice review on Spotify or however you listen. OK, Bye everyone. See you in a couple of weeks.

Show notes

Hung up is back the couch this week with Jason Phu chatting about his process, prizes, teaching art in 2026, race around the world, matt's wedding reels and negotiating business opportunities in China