5.7 How to do a puppet show at AGNSW with Emily Hunt

Transcript

Yeah, that was like where you would go. Pot point, Kings Cross for sure. Yeah, I mean to For me, it was always New Town, and now it feels like it’s. Those were the two like centres, right? Like, yeah, I mean, I love like going to Potts Point and hanging around and people are sort of seem to be going back there. But I guess, like, it really felt like I would listen to

like, you know, people, older people older than me talk about the cross. And I was like, OK, that sounds fun. And I always felt like I got like, such a shitty version that I don’t even want to go there. Like it was kind of sad. Yeah, it is upsetting ‘cause I, I caught just the last two shows before like lockdown. I’m not locked out lockout laws. You know, I got to go to like a

couple and then it was and it was like cool and scary and exciting and like I had some. Exciting, scary nights in the past, but that was also that was before like all of the stuff. But even then, like now that my research right now is around Sydney and what happened before and like sort of numinous places, like numinous places are like places where you can have

really strong experiences. And so of course these are clubs. I mean, these are like places where you know, you go all night and this was the cross. And so they’re researching that. I was like, oh, this was like super hedonistic, and there isn’t anything really hedonistic in Sydney. And I think there needs to be really hedonistic things. There are small parties that are

done around the Cove, self organized, but you have to be on the no. But like that sort of letting it all out. Like it does happen a little bit in pop culture, but it’s all wrapped up with alcohol, which always ends up having a tinge of violence. Yeah. Yeah, especially in Australia especially. Australia. Yeah. Like this British outpost? Yeah. Colonial.

Yeah. Ugly thing going. On with alcohol, yeah. Yeah, I love that idea of numinous. I I’ve never come across that word before. Yeah. Should we should we introduce our guests now? So this is hung up. You’re listening to Season 5 now, And my name is Matt. I’m Aiden. And today we’re sitting with Emily Hunt, who is a Sydney

local who you’ve relocated right to relocated Berlin. Yeah. Berlin since 2017. Yeah. So welcome to the show. Thank you. And I mean, I guess it’s safe to say you mostly work with ceramics stuff. Yes, ceramics, but my background is actually etching. Cool. Yeah, cool drawing. Yeah, and print media. And then found ceramics actually

many years after finishing my honours, having a long break and going back to my masters. Cool. Yeah, cool to have a break. Yes, ceramics like 2011. Yeah, yeah. And like, I mean, we were just like saying like, so like I’ve sort of been following your work for a while and like the, I was just trying to remember the last, like, show of yours that I saw.

And I’m pretty sure it was like one of those art nights or I think it was like an art walk or something on Abercrombie St. Yeah, it was, yeah. It was such a fun night. And it was like a boom night for Sydney art scene. There was like, I don’t know, 12 galleries around there. And yeah, I just walked into this like busy little gallery and you had this amazing like tableau, like a, a huge, like it

looked like a whole scene, you know? Yes. It was the train set, Yes, It was the train set, yeah. Eternal return. Yes, that’s it. Yeah, yeah. And like, it was a big work. So cool. Yeah. And I, I think since then I’ve just been like following along your like, you know, your works on Instagram. Yeah. I saw you move, move over. And I was like, wow, how cool. And I don’t know if this is the wrong, like, I don’t know if

this adjective like suits you. And I don’t mean it in a bad way, but I said when I saw that, is that like what I said when I saw that is that I’m always drawn to like neurotic artworks. And I’m not saying that you’re neurotic, but the style, like, it comes out as like in this sort of obsessive style, like, I

don’t know, like, does does that ring true at all? Definitely. I think obsessive. You have to be obsessive if you really want to complete like something which is a kind of world building, you know, you need every single element there and you need to be part of the world. So you do get obsessive.

And I think obsessiveness is linked to decoration and ornament. And that’s really the core of what I’m interested in. So obsession, decoration, ornament, offerings to the divine, all these things are kind of all linked up in some sort of bigger kind of concept. So neurotic is also there because when you start project

like that, you, you have to cut off a little bit from like normal stuff. You know, you’re going into another kind of dimension. So you do get a little bit neurotic. Yeah, it’s funny. I didn’t even think of that connotation of like, like delusion or something, but I, yeah, it’s funny. Like I didn’t even, I didn’t even intend that connotation, but yeah, you’re, you’re probably right.

Yeah, yeah. Bit of Delusion’s very healthy. Yeah, yeah, for for a practising artist, I think I agree. You can’t be too real and like, too sensible all the time. Yeah, practical you. Have to sort of set aside the time to be kind of delusional about the work too, and about how it’s gonna reach the potential of what you imagine in

your mind. Yeah, and. Then you have other periods which are very practical, of course, when you’re applying for things and you gotta get and this is. Also very hard stuff. Yeah, yeah. Not so fun. Yeah, like getting grants and like, yeah. Residency. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Visas. You know, yeah. Oh, that’s the visa. Particularly nasty one, Yeah.

Bureaucracy. I didn’t know you had to get a visa. I just went to side note everyone, I didn’t know you had to get a visa to go. To. Go to a lot of places, yeah. Until, like, it was way too late. Oh. No, I. Already I was like burned out and I was like damn, I finally get a holiday. Yeah.

And then I had to like the day before. Right. Yeah, I had. We were hanging out. Yeah, we were the day before. I was like, this visa is not gonna come in time, No. So I need like a super emergency extra. Visa. Very important. Quick. Smart you need to go like diplomat sun visa. 400 bucks and it was so dodgy, Yeah.

And I was like, fingers crossed, yeah, I fucking got on the plane. And then on the other side in Ho Chi Minh, I get there and it’s like, dude with like my name on a board and I just go straight through. The line really you got the. And it was all worth it, but it was so like it was the day before. Yeah. Anyway. Wow. You gotta get Yeah, I’d like to. I’d like to leave a lot of time for everything now.

Yeah, clever. Yeah, I don’t like to feel that, that that sick feeling inside about anything. And it comes out of nowhere. Yeah, it can come out of nowhere. Yeah, totally. All the time. Yeah. Yeah. Not cool. Yeah, You have to get a visa to go to Glebe from Stanmore, actually. Did you guys know that? Yeah, it gets you have passport stamped. Yeah, that’s what Sydney feels like.

It’s like different, like yeah, countries. Yeah, yeah. I went to a different country today in Sydney. Yeah, where did you? Go. I went over to the North Shore. Oh yeah, yeah, the North Shore scary, scary for like the the Badlands. Yeah, the bad, the wild. Yeah, it’s also like just absolutely desolate. Yeah. And. I went over there, yeah. And we went to Castle Craig. Oh yeah, I always say Castle. Craig Castle.

Craig that that is how they say it up there, yes. And we went there to see the water burly gryth of. Oh yeah. Gryth of Incinerator, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The incinerator. Yeah, we’ve been there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I wanted to see the architecture there, and then we hunt around for some of the houses they designed, yes, in that location, and there’s some beautiful houses and yeah, absolute

atrocities. Yeah, really. Like. Just CAD drawings, you know? And they’re like, what? Did you take out of other architects? Yeah, just. Horrible, horrible, horrible. For now, yeah. Gray. Glass, yeah. Like nightmares and you’re like, what did you tear down to do? Yeah. Oh, you know, some sweet little 1960s thing. Yeah. Exactly. Don’t even get.

Let me start it. Yeah. I’ve got such a, a boring angry rant about this. Like, yeah. I I mean, like, it’s, it’s just like, I mean, we were kind of talking earlier with like our friend Cal about like just the scary parts of like sort of big like mainstream culture. And it’s like, I can’t even like

tease it. It’s just like really depressing and scary to see, like, because there’s nothing like, there’s just no resistance to that. Like, you know, that sort of language or it’s like a sort of lack of language. Yeah. It’s like, it feels like the Tower of Babel story thing a little bit. And like, yeah, it’s just so scary. It’s. It is. It is. ‘Cause it’s houses like.

To save you and we were watching last night. My I’ll mention again my best friend who I talk about all the time, Raquel Caballero and I, I’m staying with her at the moment, Annandale in her amazing palace. That’s awesome. And she and I were watching something that she’d seen about this, this guy who lives out in Badgerys Creek, who’s built this. Incredible house that he spent 35 years building, this Italian

guy that’s a Venetian palace and this beautiful like incredible fence. And they’re going to tear down this incredible fence because they want to widen the road Rd. for these horrible cement trucks. And then at the end of the, you know, Channel 9 story, which they also had to throw in just such dumb Aussie stuff.

And I was like, oh God, this country. And we were yelling at the TV and then at the end, the woman’s like, you know, but you just can’t stop progress. And I was like, this is not progress. What he’s done is progress. And this should remain. And maybe we should stop building these awful other things. And this poor guy is going to

lose. And then it’s like, that’s just, it feels like that’s just the beginning. He’s going to lose the fence and eventually going to be like, we’re going to have to take the house now. And it means nothing that you’ve created this incredible masterpiece of creativity with mosaics, incredible roof, like this roof that was just amazing. And then the presenter’s like, I just how did you do it? You know, and I’m like with a

will with a creative genius who made a who made a pact with his genius and made it happen. And it’s like, do you know, like no one, This is remarkable. And like the sense that there’s no one there to save him. Like he’s got these two women and Annandale screaming at the TV and we can’t do anything and nothing can be done. And it’s just that that sense of

like that capitalist forces sometimes just very depressing. Yeah, yeah, really, really. It’s it’s hot. And like we, this is a big like feature in your mind relationship. It’s just the like, like resisting the presence of that in some way and like finding ways to like really enjoy life. Like outside of that, even if

it’s like sort of in a fleeting way, like like I have this imaginary artwork on the go, which is like, I don’t have a name for it or anything. It’s just sort of working something out about like a like a extracurricular activity from capitalism, which is like you pick a spot that’s like a non commercial type of spot to be like. So I had this spot which was like behind the goals at this at

Camdenville Oval, which is the Oval at the South end of King Street. And it’s like, that’s our spot. And we’re going to meet up there like on Wednesday afternoons, for example, and like just be there and like, I don’t know, gather, like take photos of the spot and like just hang out there and give it some life of its own. That has nothing to do with like commercial activity.

And then, I don’t know, I, I guess in doing so, discover something about life that doesn’t have a commercial like, you know. Thing Exactly. Yeah, I’m just thinking about. I like that too. I like that sort of feeling that you’re getting something, which is a, a very gratifying. And I, I think one of the best examples for me that I often talk about is like taking a walk, like taking a really long walk without destination and

just feeling the city, feeling the streets, looking for the details, watching the ornament, seeing how people dress their houses. And then at the end of the very long walk, you can kind of feel like you’ve like been shopping, but you didn’t buy anything. Like you’re all filled. Up, you’re all filled. Up. Cool. That’s cool. Yeah, I love that. That, that one for me is like

something I do as regularly as I possibly can, but it has to be without destination. And it’s usually nice with a friend who’s in the same frame of mind. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And not maybe with three because 3 then somehow the triangle, yes the triad breaks. That is a really wise thing about relationships, yeah. Yeah, but the triad, then there’s too many people making decisions. Yes.

And then with the with the duo, you can be like, what about down this street? I haven’t been down that street. Let’s go down there. Oh, no, I’ve got this house that I love because it’s up on this hill and it feels like it’s floating in the sky. And then you show each other certain things that you haven’t seen. And it’s. Yeah, it’s like very feeling in some weird way. And it, it can be done, I think

very consciously that, you know, you, you sort of deliberately looking for things you haven’t looked at before you. Know yeah I like. That this can also give you a sense of like that you own the city in some capacity because you’re not in a car. You know what I mean? You’re like, see, I’m better than you car drivers. Yes, and I’m and I’m separate from you, you got because of

this glass and metal. Yeah, totally. Yeah. And like, you know, I think who was it, the Situationists or whoever, like talking about like dereves, like, oh, it’s a good dereve, right? I love Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, the psycho geographical, yes kind of experience. Yeah, totally. Yeah, and I like the deref because they would just go to pub to pub.

Oh. Really. It’s a recent like, yeah. We got no definition. Yeah, genius. A lot of these, a lot of these like air quotes, like heady artistic things also have like I’m like, I’m an observer of like the the popular. And then my like my other homie who’s not like an art guy. He’s like, yeah, I love people watching.

And I was like, Nah, it’s not people. And I’m like, Oh yeah. Fuck it, like. It is people and I was like everyone during COVID. I love to people watch. So yeah. Right, person. I just, I can’t. Yeah, I love handle that. Yeah, yeah. Someone who’s got a look. Yeah. It’s not like a hot look, but they got a look. Yeah. You know, they really pull. Together. So exciting. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, totally the look that guy, Yeah, with the crazy. Hand, Yeah, that’s a look. Yeah, that’s. A huge look. The bathrobe on. Yeah, that’s a look. Yeah, we saw some crazy looks today. Yeah, today as well. No, I think there could be a couple of those guys. Yeah. We saw a guy who is he had skinny jeans and they were so skinny that they were like tucked into his chucks, like the Converse.

That’s a look. Yeah. That was an absolute look. Yeah. It was really funny. Yeah. Oh, one thing that like things. Yeah, totally.

One thing I want to know about is like, I feel like we could probably talk about this for a long time is you, you’ve brought up the word ornament a couple of times and like I, I sense that there’s, there’s a lot behind that word for you. Like, do you want to just like talk about that for a bit? Well, you know, I when I was at art school, you know, when I was

doing my masters, I was very interested in the power of ornament and how symbols can reveal hidden truths. But I had been very cautious or a little bit judgmental around magic because I’d worked at a bookshop in Glebe with Sappho. Sappho. I know Sappho’s one of the best

book shops in Sydney, hands down, because it hang on, it hung on after all these years. And it’s really is like a mansion of books, you know what I mean? Like it’s got so many flaws and it’s got good stuff because they’ve got a good eye. Because it really comes down to the owner. Yeah. If the owner is good, a good eye, then you’re gonna have an unusual stock. If you don’t have a good person, then they’re gonna cull and not gonna buy the stuff coming even

into the shop. Yeah. It’s duration to shit like they just. Like I like automobiles, you know, train, train books. You’re like we’ve. Got it. Boring. So I worked there for a long time and I would have like, I, you know, Glee hippies, but you know, bohemians come in and be like, do you have like esoteric section? And I’d be like, oh, he’s

losers. Like, oh, God. Stinking hippies. Yeah, totally. Yeah, like. God like God, there is no God. Yeah, yeah, atheist. And it’s all about selfish gene and I thought I was just so kind of cool and nihilistic and then would buy like amazing books on magic, like all the Crowleys, all the Dion fortunes, all the really hard to get books and,

and, and just ignore them and be like, what is this shit? And then years later, when I left Australia and I was in the, in this residency in Bardems in the middle of nowhere in this weird castle for 7-9 months. I, I, I discovered because I’d always been interested in Renaissance print.

So like Renaissance print came out after this discovery of these grottos that were discovered in Rome in like 1480. And they were buried so far down on the ground that they were called grottos. And inside these caves, which were like palaces for Nero, it was this, you know, devilish

kind of emperor. They painted all these like hybrid strange creatures down there. And so like Raphael went down there and all these Italian painters and they started copying the style and they started to then like Neoplatonism came back. So like this kind of return to, you know, all the mythic kind of things, but also the return to like the schools of mystery,

which is like, in a sense very, very strong, strong magical procedures called theogy. So this is where you like pull the divine from the planets into your body and you have a certain way of doing it. And it’s a lot of it’s got to do with looking at symbols or making symbols. And so then when I was in the castle, I got very interested in

looking at the work of Hans Board and Grey, who’s a, a German printmaker and made like really sexually explicit, taboo, very, very erotic. Like back in the day. Yeah, back in like 15, it would have been like, oh God, my dates here 1510, so like 30 years after that.

So all of the spread of this discovery started to spread because it was at the same time as the invention of print. So they’d figured out that you could make Armory, right? So Armory is essentially etched copper. And then some smart person decided that let’s flatten that piece of copper and like, let’s like ink that copper up. And let’s put that to a press and see, you know, then we can

put that on paper and then we can make multiple prints. And so then those prints would spread throughout Europe. They were like highly prized possessions. And so then ornaments spread. The language of ornaments spread. And the Italians would do certain things to it and then the Germans would see it and the Germans would steal that and copy that and do other things. And then at the same time as that, all this magical

manuscript stuff was happening. So you had you had the witch hunts happening where they were persecuting women and images of women were being drawn by men that were really extremely taboo in the sense of like how porn is taboo, you know, I mean, like you’re drawn to looking at it, but at the same time, you know, it’s naughty. So it’s got that push pull

effect to it. And these images also had about witches, which also fed back into the story of these, that these women were able to cut, you know, to make men’s penises disappear. If only that would be amazing. I have a few men’s penises. I would if I knew that spell. I would definitely. Want me too actually disappear?

Yeah, you too, Probably. I mean, yeah, I don’t know. Yeah, like there’s a. Few I deserve. It I don’t have many enemies but it would be a hilarious. Friend, I would never know it was you because they’re just like. Yeah, that’s true. God, I’d be so embarrassing. Running a pot. As well. Yeah, you could. You could never admit that your penis disappear. No, you could never admit. You would just be like. We can I go to your wife like we can never have sex ever again.

Literally. I don’t want to talk about it.

So then at the same time as this is happening, you have like John Dee, who was this like incredible intelligent man who’s like invoking the angels and then this underground clerical kind of all the monks sharing these extremely powerful texts and manuscripts. So all these things are happening at once and you’ve got print going on.

And so Prince picking up all this, all this imagery. And so then when I made that connection of that, that actually ornament hides within it magical symbology and that all ornament is in a sense a kind of magical seal or a magical kind of potent symbol. Then when I walk around the city and I see like a Griffith, or if I see like a strange squirrel

that’s been made out of stone, I think, OK, So what was what is it’s what is it’s archetype? What is it’s root? What is what was it’s original meaning that has now been lost in society because we just overlook all this beauty constantly and I. Even just like duplicate it mindlessly, you know? Yeah, yeah. And we also like to remove it. Yeah.

And we like to remove it with these steel horrible concrete disasters. Yeah. And we do this, I think, because also ornament and excess can create disorder. Yeah. And it can also make people feel like they can be themselves. Yeah. You know. So like, do you remember, like at in primary school when you had Mufti day? Yeah.

And all the kids were mental and Mufti Day because they didn’t work in school uniform. Yeah. And and like, the teachers always be like, oh, God, it’s Mufti Day. All the kids are going to be expressing themselves. Yeah. It’s the naughty day. Yeah. You know, that’s such a good point. Yeah. And I think of that as well. And then when you think of like. Excessive ornament in temples in in places of worship ornaments always like a offering to to

something which is the great mystery. And so then when I made all those connections in 2017, it, it changed everything. But it also, I also realized that if I like once I kind of made like this moment, this clarity, then I also realized that perhaps my judge mentalness

needs to put aside a little bit and I probably need to actually try magic. And so then I tried it and I did it and then it was a bit fucking weird. And then that also changed everything. And then it’s just started to be pretty much underlying all the work all the time. And I’m, you know, now kind of

stuck in it, which I like because it’s like endlessly fascinating. And it’s a very big, like, very like weird topic. And it also, like I was saying the other night in an artist talk that was absolutely one of the weirdest artist talks I’ve ever given my. Entire life you’re. Just the one at SCA. OK, cool. Yeah. So I’ll give you a quick rundown.

On what happened, if anyone’s. Listening and who was there They’ll they’ll understand what. The hell happened. So I come into the auditorium and it’s right next to the playing field, and there’s a huge game playing. So there’s roars, there’s chanting, there’s screaming, and I’m like, oh, what happened with the microphone? Did we get the other microphone? And they’re like, no, we didn’t. And I was like, all right, well, and then everyone’s filling in

and I’m like, just bring it all up. And I’m like, OK, let’s go, you know? You had you started with no mic. No mic. And I just used my voice and I had this crowd of like, at least I think probably 70 people, maybe more. And everyone’s sitting there looking at me. And I start and I go into a kind of trance and I’m I’m doing the talk. And I’m saying at the same time

as I’m saying, you know, magic weeds, reality. Magic banishes the banal you hear on this playing field, like some young men have stolen this loudspeaker and yelling out like, like really hardcore stuff. I’m not going to say. And. Then it gets the and it’s just going and it’s going more and more crazy and it’s like the act of talking about the subject I

felt like was producing a kind of. Backlash. Oh my God. Fighting that and then everyone in the audience was like all eyes on me. That was super concentrated. I was holding their attention. Then there was bagpipes, which I didn’t hear, but someone told me there was bagpipes. And then at the end there was a helicopter. Oh my God. So it was like the most intensive. Company.

It was coffee. It was like Total War outside going on, like in a sense like like the like war chance and sort of, you know. And coils and like, yeah, so cool, yeah. And so talking about the subject too can also put people in a strange mood, which I like because that’s also what art should be doing, you know what I

mean? And we’re running out of time. There’s like, you know, the art should actually have a pronounced effect on artists. And when you look at art, and I think something like Hilma Affluent’s work has that power in the work because it was like coming from something bigger than her. And that it, it waited for the right time to hit. And then it just completely opened up all the doors again for artists to be able to talk

about it. And and it sort of created this knock on effect where everyone’s like, oh, I kind of always thought that, but I didn’t think I was allowed to talk about it. And I think from having rack and the things that we used to do, we were always very keen on pushing things a bit far. And then as I’ve gotten older, I’m like even more keen on

pushing things even a bit further. Yeah, cool. You know, Yeah, yeah. So the ornament for me is, yeah, totally central. Yeah, yeah, I love that. Yeah. It’s, it’s, it’s such a deep topic and like so easily dismissed, I think by a lot of people where it’s like, it’s like seen as like empty, you know, in a way, but it’s, it’s

really like I, I love what you’re saying. It’s like kind of at the heart of this like system of, of symbols that we just seems like we just naturally do it as human beings. You know, there’s so many symbols that we have even forgotten the old ones from like before there was writing to like record stuff properly. And, you know, like I was watching this thing about sand

drawing from Vanuatu. Have you seen this stuff? It’s amazing use of this stuff where it’s like describing these like deeply complicated. Like there was one that’s drawing that I saw that was like, this is the picture of the local island economy. And it like, it looked like an economy. It was amazing. But yeah, like has all these in just in the way that like they maybe crossover in this grid pattern in the centre, like

inscribing all this very meaningful stuff that without, I think a system of like, you know, like printing presses and stuff had to be maintained that way and orally and like, that’s it, that’s all you get. So yeah, it’s funny. These symbols are like, in one way can be really fragile. But like something like, I don’t know, Stonehenge has lasted like, yeah, yeah, yeah, thousands of years.

Still a mystery. Still, yeah, it’s a good I like. I like a good mystery. Same. Yeah, yeah, same. Here, give me a mystery. And yeah, I’m like, I’m happy. Yeah, I’m, I’m happy not to know. I’m. I’m very comfortable in not knowing. It’s always disappointing when you know it’s very hard for like any medium to like once the twist is twisted, it’s really

hard to keep for it all to shake out and still be Yeah, engaging. Yeah, 100%. Yeah. That’s the hardest part, yeah. Like movies and stuff can pull it off. But yes, that’s the tricky part. It is. I’m like, I really liked the tension when I didn’t know. I was thinking when you were talking about like ornament and magic and originally that kind

of dismissing the Glee hippies. I still feel like, well, at least the part of the art world that is like the part that I see and have known the best, which is like, you know, a pretty middle class, like pretty white, like, you know, in Sydney art world. It’s also a pretty like like at

at least agnostic, like God is a bit of a dirty word in some ways. Like I know like Taro and like remember Matt? We saw, like, those beautiful big tarot cards arts basically, and that’s definitely good. And like astrology being taken, you know, as a sort of system. So there’s been like, you know, yeah, it’s kind of, it’s a bit

dorky to be like a super strict atheist. So there has been some pushback. Yeah. But like, leaning too far. Leaning too far, at least for the white kids, into spirituality would be, I think, a little bit of a faux pas, almost like exactly. I would say that I don’t know if that’s if you guys agree that it’s still sort. Of I agree and I and I do think there’s some stuff I see when people they, they use the kind

of aesthetics of magic and they’re like, I’m just gonna play with this little. Subject and then I’m. Like, yeah, but you’re gonna have to try it and then you’ll be a little bit frightened by it and then you probably don’t want to talk about it anymore because I can really frighten the shit out of you. So I don’t like it when I see it where the aesthetics are being played with a bit. And I think also there are there are ways to do it, which is like

you really need to know your references and you really need to read a lot and you really need to kind of know the history of it where it’s like that’s got to come from obsession. So, but it’s so it’s such a kind of fringe subject to always be a fringe subject. And I think when you’re thinking about stuff in Sydney or anywhere actually, even in

Berlin, I have the saying like when I’m waiting for the cars, because there’s so many cars everywhere all the time, I always say like this to my daughter. I’m always like, cars, cars, paintings, paintings, paintings. And she’s like, what do you mean by paintings, paintings, paintings. And I’m like, that’s all they want. Paintings, paintings, paintings. The art world just wants paintings, paintings, paintings. Yeah, you know, And I do make. Paintings.

And you know, like I’m always like, maybe I should just make paintings. And I have been considering making some paintings. Nice. Small paintings. Yeah, that’s they were nice portable paintings, Yeah. Paintings, Paintings. Paintings. Yeah. That’s a very good point, yeah. And I say, you know, I see people who are successful like paintings. Paintings. You. Know so like and it doesn’t matter like yeah yeah and not

paintings about really serious magic shit because it does scare people that’s the other thing about it you’ve got to approach it in such a way where you’re not scaring people yeah because. If you want to be commercially like. Yeah, yeah, you know, but then at the same time for this show at at the art gallery, like I, I have kind of pushed a little bit because. I’m like. It doesn’t have to be commercial like, but then the commercial

show did last year was also the woman I work with in London. She was like, go for it. So it depends on who you’re working with. So you’ve got to find your people, you’ve got to be patient. And I think in Sydney I don’t, I don’t know yet. I don’t. I don’t know if there’d be anyone who would be willing to take on the subject because it is so fringe. Like any gallerists?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I’m OK with that. Like, it’s nice to just come back and do this and then have a lot of fun. Totally old friends, yeah. Walk around a lot, explore again, and then just go back. I mean, we’re yeah, we were sort of we’re talking about like trying to put together some shows and like non traditional spaces. You know, I love this, you know,

like this is something that like Sam was like encouraging us to do, you know, in our chat with him recently and yeah, super. Like it’s so ripe for the plucking that idea. Like we’ve had a lot of like really cool. Like, you know, little Aries pop up like recently in the last like three years or whatever, especially.

Yeah, like proper galleries. A really cool. One and like, you know, show up to a show. People be showing up to show. Yeah, people. It feels like people show up to opening nights of exhibitions, like, even more than like my band’s playing or whatever. Yeah, right. Easier to get people to an art show than a live music thing, which is really cool, actually.

Just realizing this now. It depends on the show but like prop this one in Ashfield. Like have you have you seen this gallery? Not yet, no. It’s so cute. Yeah, I live. In Ash and I live in Croydon. Yeah I’m. I’m being making fun of it in a nice way, but it’s like this shitty little triangle. Really, it’s like time. It is a shitty little triangle. With all love and respect, Prop,

we love you guys. Now next door, which is quite fitted out, super nice, it’s like. Way, but also little. It’s all little. Yeah, yeah. That’s good. But it’s cool. It’s like a. Cheap triangle. Yeah, yeah, there’s like. Some opening out there, like the whole street, that whole corner. Yeah, is packed with. Kids. Yeah, really cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And like another one we always talk about is tiles which like. Yeah. Oh yeah, I’ve heard about tiles, yeah. Really beautiful. It used to be a butcher shop. Oh yeah. And yeah, it’s kind of still got that energy there. Like they have the tiles that, you know, it’s like easy to clean the tiles down or whatever. Yeah, but they’re such funky, like weird looking tiles, you know, So it has a big effect on the.

Space good and looking at OGI like this too. Don’t renovate. Yeah, the way I also have this whole thing like if you move into an old shop and make a gallery, call the gallery after what the shop was last called and keep the same signage. Clean it up inside a little bit and just keep it the same. Name. It’s like the pick and choose in Newtown. Yeah. And there’s one up on Crystal

St. or whatever opposite 335. What’s that one? It’s like the, it’s like a news agent. And then it says like we sell Cleo or whatever. Like it’s this cute, like a little magazine ad, but it’s just, it’s just a gallery now. That’s so cool. Yeah. Yeah. Would you like to talk a little bit about the Archive of NSW show? Yeah, Should we get Would you

intro? That yeah, no, we can’t even talk about it. So yeah, you know, it’s, it’s on until the 7th of October and I think this comes out, this will be out before then. So everyone has no excuse to to miss this one. Yeah. But yeah, like take it away. Like, like, you know. Yeah, well, it came as a bit of a a shock. I got an e-mail from Nick Yelverton, who is a curator at

the Archive of NSW, saying I proposed to show because I didn’t actually know that they have to propose a show before they contact the artist, that they, they, the curator decides something and then they do the proposal. So there must be shows that I don’t know, I don’t know how it. Works. See the light of day. Maybe. I don’t know. I don’t. Know so they pitched to their their own team like their. Team and then it it seemed to

have been a kind of good, you know, like there were everyone was like, yeah, OK. And then he was like, I know you’re in Berlin and we can work it out. And then it took like a year to organise and then it all happened very quickly. And I had had this marionette idea in The Hague when I was doing residency at this really

great space there. It’s also like run by the sort of Dutch government called 1646, which was built in 1646. And it so it lands right in my sort of research era because I’m kind of into that, you know, from like sort of 1480 to like 1680. I actually, I just like to jump

in. I really like that era, too. Yeah, this is really just. A freaky area, yeah. Era. And I listen to a lot of music from that era. Really. I do. Yeah. I’m real fucking weird with this stuff, nerds. Yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah, we should get some T-shirts. Yeah, for sure. 1480, yeah. 1580, this is, yeah, it’s it’s like a class of.

Yeah, 1511 graduating class. Yeah, that’s a cute idea.

All the architecture, all the image. Yeah, it’s fascinating. So they’re. Born in the wrong. Born 2 legs. Yeah, exactly. I’m a 19 kid. 90s kid. Yeah. A 1490s kid. That’s cool. There’s some T-shirts here that we could figure out. Yes. And. So I was there, and then I was thinking about how, like, my work for a long time has been

asking to be animated, to be in this sort of state of like, actual movement. And ceramics can be like that when you’re making them. Yeah. They really feel like they’re in a state of aliveness when you’re playing with the clay. And it’s sort of, I have this classic line that someone’s probably going to steal one day, which is the clay leads the clay tell you, tells you what it wants to be. You can force it, but if you let

it, it will be a kind of automatic process, like in the sense of a surrealist or channelling process. And you know, around the whole topic of channelling or automatism, we talk about drawing and painting and writing, but like, I’m like clay is the thing. Clay comes from the earth. It wants to be like either like a vessel or it wants to be like a figure.

It wants to be an entity. So true become a face. I love that that’s so that’s such a good like summation of the like big branches of of ceramics as vessels and figures. Oh. I love that and that, you know, different, different materials have an intelligence. So you have to find out what the intelligence is of the material and get behind it. So then you also aren’t always

the main person. So you can sit back a little bit behind the intelligence of the material. So you can let this other mysterious other come into play, this other kind of thing, which is this mysterious thing where you sometimes, you know, when a really good artwork comes to be, you’re like, who made this? You know, did I make this like, or you, you see an old artwork, you’re like, I forgot how I made

that. That’s a successful artwork. That’s one that like lasts. Yeah, that’s all that lasts. So then I was thinking about the marionette and I proposed this idea to Nick and he was into it. And so then we started thinking about how are we going to get this to happen because you can’t bring wood into Australia. Well, you can bring wood into Australia, but it has to go into quarantine, right, For quite

some time. And so strict at the border. Yeah, Yeah, we have border control. Very strict A. TV show devoted Yes we have to harassing people who try to bring too many cigarettes, Yes, and weird shit. Yeah, I’ve definitely, Oh my God, I can say this now. Statute of limitations applies any for any border agents. One of us, Agent Lizard. But I have fucking brought cigarettes into this.

Country because there’s so much cheaper overseas. Yeah, totally. Yeah. Like €5 for like a like a packet of tobacco. Yeah, totally. I was at the pub like and that show was just on with like the time and we would have take up each other like. And what the? Fuck, is this even the show? Like, it was so brutal. Like, yeah, it was kind of funny, but it was so fucking. Brutal and like feels pretty racist sometimes.

Oh, it’s very racist, I. Just like, oh, it is like on a Sunday. Album. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Everyone’s super racing into that, yeah? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, they got caught. Yeah, they were trying to get in. That was like an. Idiot. Yeah, like it’s. Really like that mean. Spirited show, yeah. It is. It’s a really mean spirited show. Just interrupt. So did you already have like, had you already built up the like marionette practice? No, no, I’d actually made marionettes in 2009 ‘cause that was when I was first in Berlin.

I was, I’ve been on and off in Berlin for many years and then I was there in 2009. I did a residency at this place called Kunstofa, which is like reverse garbage, and I made marionettes with the stuff there. And I had the show in this weird rat rat, rat Skeller. Rat in German means like advice. But I always think it’s so

funny. It’s that you go to the rat, get advice. Because I’m also a big rat lover. Like literally I love rat. Cool. Yeah, cool. Creature. Yeah, it’s very cool, very smart creature. So I had this marionette show there. And then, you know, sometimes old ideas come back to haunt you and you’re like, I never really took it to the level I need to take it. So I’d have proposed for I’d, I’d, I’d, I’d sent a grant to

OSCO and that didn’t get through ‘cause I, well, you know how it is. They’re just like, what is this weird proposal? Because I was seeing at the time, I was very, I’m very interested in like this idea of many different types of intelligences that live in this kind of liminal space. So you have the marionette, you

have the homunculus, which is an alchemical idea which you can create a little human being in a really foul way, like with like semen and a cow and. Some. Shit and like a tube and stuff and the little man comes out, you know, and then you have of course, like you have the Mandrake, you know, which is magical and you have all these different magical things. And then at the same time, it

was right around when like the crazy AI stuff was happening when it was still very new you and you had Sydney and you had this, you know, you had this agrigore of intelligence that was coming from all the Internet and they’ve put all these perimeters now on on open AI. But at the time it was like it was like, whoa, like what is this? This is like all of human consciousness all like creating

this one weird other, you know, so I. Unintelligible. The the early stuff was yeah it. Was great. I was like super excited by that. But we never got to play with that ‘cause they never gave that to us. They only gave it to a few people and but the stuff was enough for me to be like, OK, this is like, as Eric David

would say, Eric Davis would say, this is high weirdness. This is weird in reality. Yeah, and the highest. Sort of 1960s writer guys, right? Yeah. Yeah, he writes about Philip K Dick and Terence McKenna. I. Love that stuff. Yeah. I love, I love Eric Davis. Everyone’s always like, he’s such a man. Like he’s never mentioning women. And I’m like, yeah, yeah, you know, like I know. But like, he’s he man.

He can talk, man. He can talk. He can really, he can really hold a lecture. I can’t remember, I’m not so into it anymore, but when I was like 17 it was Terence McKenna. Is dead. Terence Mckenna’s brother. I love Dennis. Yeah, it was. I love Dennis McKenna so good. Well, you saw him speak. You were so lucky. Super Oh is that? The You were lucky.

I love Dennis, too, Terence. He went too soon. He had a massive brain tumor. And he finally was like, maybe it’s been smoking all the pot. Yeah. But I didn’t think it was. He was just. Yeah, yeah. Apparently the tumor was mushroom shaped, they said. So they said. Go figure he’s. Come back. He’s come back through a few times and talked to a few people. So he’s still around, I think

could definitely invoke him. Yeah. So I’ve been playing around with his notion of the machine elf. You know, the machine elf. I’ve done a show down Dusseldorf around the machine elf. And the machine elf is this entity that you see when you’re on a high dose of DMT and LSD. Not everyone sees them. And it’s this sort of strange creature that wants to play with language.

And he would say, like they kind of push you around a bit, like they’re a little bit playful, but they’re a bit aggressive. And they’re sort of these kind of constructions, which are kind of machiny, like they’re constantly sort of moving and they want to talk to you, but then you don’t know the language. And I’m interested in these entities that live in these, in these dimensions and stuff.

So then I was bringing that all together and I was thinking about what is the device which is material? Because, you know, the demiurge in me, which is the idea of, like, creating material things is very strong, not ephemeral. I’m like, I want material. I want things in the world. Yeah. And I was thinking about the marionette, and I thought, this is the most magical device you

could make because it doesn’t just weird the audience out. It weirds me out. Yeah. It weirds me out that my work looks like it’s a lie. Yeah. And it’s not animated. It’s not through the digital. Yeah. It is a break from AI. It is a it is a it is an absolute resistance to the computer. Yeah, it is. It is the resistance to what we

think. You know what, what all these possibilities are. I’m actually the old school way of just moving a string doll will weird out everybody so much. And it’s just such a simple idea and it’s the one of the most powerful. So then then we started talking about different Australian esoteric personalities that have been forgotten in Australia.

And I’ve done enough research around that. So I pulled together six of them. And one of them is actually, so there’s six. There’s Rosaline Norton, who was a trance artist, a very serious magical practitioner who lived in the cross and was known as the Witch of Kings Cross. And she lived in like Roslyn

Gardens and also down on Broham St. And was just a total outlier. Like at the time, her work to is not in any collections still on the fringe. And I’m like about time, you know, that she’s in in the in the Canon and talked about properly. And then there’s Layla Waddle who left Australia, returned

later, but went to London and met with Alastair Crowley and was a did these incredible kind of musical things with her violin that would these crazy invocations of planets into the room called the rights of Alusis and did all this crazy shit and then came back to Australia and, you know, just did this like

just total outlier friends with Catherine Mansfield and just lived a very strange life. And then McCullough Dwyer, who was my teacher at SCA and she’s made a lot of work around Seance and invoked different people and is not afraid to talk about the subject. Also did some really crazy stuff with ghosts on Cockatoo Island circles, a lot of symbology in

her work. So she’s also a Marinette. And then 222 guys, James Smith, who was a spiritualist in Melbourne, who was an art critic, got obsessed with the talking board and lost his mind. And Neville Drury, who was a esoteric writer and was friends at the University of Sydney with

Steven Skinner, who’s a serious ceremonial magician. And Neville was just such a dad. Like the photos of him, like he’s just got like, he’s like the puppet of him. Like I always say, like he’s got dad bod because I had to put like a belly on him. He’s got Dad. Bod, that’s cool. That’s cool and. He’s got dad hair too now. Like it’s like his wig is like

really dishevelled and he’s like, like, it looks like really. Oh, so so so many people are still around like. No, only Michaela. Michaela’s only around and then the the 6th, the 6th one is actually myself. So the whole aim of making the work is also to talk to your own work and to talk to your own

like, well, they call it in kind of Greek, they call it the diamond. So the diamond is the thing that gets you going like making work. It’s the creative genius, and it can be sometimes separate from you, and the diamond can sometimes take over your life. Yeah. And then when you don’t have the diamond around you, hopefully. Yeah, Hope so. And then when you and you lose

the diamond and you give up on the diamond, you can become very depressed. Yes. You can become seriously depressed. Yes. It’s a strange relationship that you can have with the Creative Diamond. Yeah, it feels like it can just sort of leave you sometimes. Sometimes it can leave you. And then some people give up on it completely and they go into just being like, I’m not gonna make art anymore. It didn’t give me what I wanted.

Yeah, I didn’t get what I wanted from it. I’m gonna give it up. And I, I, when I see that, I always think, oh, it’s risky. The diamond not going to like that diamond going to get you, going to get you later, going to get you later when you’re old, going to get you maybe drinking a little bit more. You know, it’s kind of, you know, yeah. It’ll come back in a way that like you can’t handle. Yeah.

Interesting. Interesting. I love the idea of like, like just thinking about these things. It’s like, yeah. Like the diamond and the demio. Just like, you know, it’s like things that happened to you as as someone who’s open to being creative, you know, like we talk about this a lot about like, you know, because there’s there’s and we talked about this with

Sam too. Actually. There’s like a lot of inherent like risk in in, in the financial sense and for some people in the social sense of becoming an artist or like not becoming, but continuing to insist on being an artist. And it’s like, you know, it’s especially these days, it’s like kind of a scary world to be picking this, like, like, so like, you know, my parents were

like, you know, a bit sort of suspicious of the path of the artist that I’ve chosen. You know, it’s worked out fairly well for me so far. Like, I have a sort of RT job and then I get to make art. But yeah. Do you what, what are your thoughts on like, on this sort of idea of like living an artistic life, you know, like, like, you know. Yeah.

What do you think? Well, I’ve surrounded myself generally with people who do have art at the centre of their life. So they either have it as their job or they’re obsessed with it and they make it, or they’re always looking at it, or they’re trying to travel so they can explore and make more work. That’s so I’ve kind of culled

out most the normies. You don’t miss the normies at all. Well, I’ve still got a few, but generally I don’t, I don’t get energy that way. So I’ve kind of prioritized energy over that married to an artist. So, but when I was younger and

and I was, I was very unsure about being an artist for a very, very long. Time. Interesting. And I’d, I’d gone through art school and I’d, I’d like being a bit of a high achiever at, at SCA. And then I left and I had a couple of very dark years and then I decided to run a magazine with Raquel and we lived up in Paramount Rd. And that was very demonic. We were like totally charged by

it. And it was a good way to also build people around us and all these connections. And it was so much fun. And then I, then I, I, then I went back and did my masters and then I started questioning everything again. Like one of my biggest questions was how am I giving to society? So like I, I would have

breakdowns and be like, maybe I should just be a nurse. Maybe I should be doing something better than this. This is incredibly selfish. I felt all the time the question of like, this is really a selfish act to be doing. And then I came around to that. I think I don’t even know what it was. It was probably actually after doing magic in 2017 ‘cause it was a long time, like I decided

to be an artist in I guess really seriously in 2011 when I, when I was with a gallery here in Sydney. And then I was like, OK, I’m really, I’m really, I’m, I’m an artist. I’m going to really be a commercial artist. I’m going to be a practicing proper artist. And I’ve made the decision and that didn’t go the way that I thought it was going to go.

That actually didn’t really end that well. I had to learn a lot from that experience. Got pretty well, got kind of put through the Tumblr on that one. Yeah, right. Can you share some of those lessons with because a lot of you know, a lot of the people like listening to this will be thinking like, boy, I hope I can show you know, in this gallery, like in art gallery and.

Like I won’t name names but if you look at my CV then you be able to figure it out. Sure, but like I had to, I had to make a decision to leave because it was like killing my creativity, the financial risks, being told what to do, like. Literally being like editorialized. Yes, yes, and, and lots of, you know, lots of kind of anyway,

people, people, people. Put the dams together. Depends on pushes. Yeah. Well, no more kind of control aspects to do with dealing with galleries. But I think from that experience, it was a bit like that was when I was just like this thing that I have or whatever this thing is that I that I know that I can do, which is like truly like my star.

You know what I mean? Like, you know, this classic Crowley line, which, you know, Crowley is this kind of gross figure in magic, but you can’t ignore him. And he has this line and some of his lines are really good. But like one is like every man and woman is a star. And like, I’d always be like, oh God, like what? Like this is so dumb. But like, you do have a certain

star and like you’ve got to find this thing that you know, that you know how to do. And this is like the will, you know. And from doing that, then I found that again, somehow I found that in amongst everything. And then I just sort of thought, you know, making art is actually something that can change people’s ways of thinking. And I, and I also saw I, I also

look at a lot of amazing art. I go looking for a lot of amazing art. I also see a lot of shit art, but looking at art can also change me. And so I thought, actually, I have this sort of theory that I read about. And then I was like, OK, This is why I’ll stay being an artist. It’s this idea that in a, in a, in a jungle, when the frogs disappear in in the jungle, the

frog is this insignificant kind of creature. But when the frogs disappear, it means that the jungle is unwell. It means that the jungle is sick. And I think that artists are the frogs. Oh yes, totally. It keeps the society healthy. It’s like, and it keeps the society healthy in a way because it’s a it’s a release. It’s a it’s a transgressive

release sometimes too. And you need that as well. So any creative actors like this, making music, writing, performing, acting, all the stuff, because all of this, all of these, all of these characters are frogs, you know, and This is why it’s so important. And then if, when you see societies that take that away, they become violent societies always.

So if you, if you, if you null that out or you control that it, it’s a, it’s a kind of act of violence. So then I was like, I’m going to go for this. But then I, I really kind of had grown up a bit. And I also, one of the big things that I did was I completely stopped drinking alcohol. Cool. Huge ‘cause. It’s like that is the answer. Yeah, all like making.

Good art. A lot of people are doing that at the moment, hey. Yeah, I know. It’s it’s probably it. We don’t drink nearly. As much just we’re getting older or whether the culture’s shifting, maybe a. Little. Both, yeah. Yes, like, I’ve got a young sister. She doesn’t drink that much. Yeah. I mean, I still like to get pissed occasionally, but yeah, had long breaks. Yeah. Yeah, it can be helpful. It can be helpful. But yeah, I do, Yeah.

I think all my years. I think it also didn’t help with my my relationship too, with the first gallery I was with, because I did drink a lot at openings and I would get very, very messy. Yeah. And I didn’t, I didn’t my emotions were not in control. I was not in control of my life. OK, Yeah. And I really, always wanted to party really hard.

And I was a real party animal. Like, I was like last man standing. Yeah. Every single time. Heroic. I was. Yeah. I was like tough. Yeah. Aussie girl victorious. Yeah. And I was. And I think that this also caused me a lot of heartache and a lot of hangovers and, and it didn’t, it was not good for my, for my professional relationship. So I also played a part in all

of this. Like I, I, you know, it was, it was a combination of a lot of things happening. Also, you know, the, I was putting a lot of pressure on the work because you start thinking, OK, well, the work better sell. You know, I better keep selling. Like, what do I do if I don’t sell? And then when I, when I left and then I wasn’t selling and I had a couple of years of just being

out my own and making my own work again, I was like, I can’t put pressure on the work to sell. I have to just let the work be and it has to be at a certain level. And then the work will be discovered at some point and just have faith in that. And that took a long time to come around too, because I also was like, COVID helped a bit because I was realizing that the

act of making the work is the gift. It’s not selling the work that if I didn’t have this right now during COVID, Oh my God, I was lost and I knew exactly what I wanted to do with my time when COVID. Came and I was like. I’m going to Make Heart like hardcore and. I was like, yeah. Then all that pressure off, off like, oh better sell and I

better make money from it and what do I do? Like to please people to make sure that they like it. This is a terrible, terrible situation to get yourself into as an artist. Like, yeah, worrying if people are gonna like. You yeah, yeah, that’s the worst way to to start. Yeah, a work from yeah. Yeah, it’s the worst place to start the work from.

Yeah, and now I don’t. Start that at all, but you just have to banish it. Yeah, it. It does come up. Yeah, yeah, yeah it. Does make. It but less and less for me as I’ve gotten older, ‘cause I’m just, I just don’t. I’m just like, I’m not even, well, you know, it’s a bit tricky, but I’m always like, well, I’m not even the one really making it. Nice. That’s a pretty good one. Yeah, that’s a good one,

legally. It wasn’t even me. Legally, that wasn’t me. Yeah, that’s cool. I like that. I. Was in a state of trance, so you know. It’s also I like it makes. Me feel a bit more comfortable about everything and then yeah, yeah, I met a woman in London. We I think that the relationships with galleries is I always say you have to flirt for a long time and you guys

sauce each other out a. Little bit. And I think saucing each other out is a really good idea. And take it slow. It’s cool. A courting, courting, courting, period. I like it. Yeah, you. Can’t you can’t be too pushy? Yes. And neither can they. Neither can they, you know. No, no, no, they. Can’t be too pushy either ‘cause then you’re like, it’s like going out with someone. Yeah, or two, or even if they can’t love bomb you too, you

know? No, no, no. If they love bomb you, this is a bad sign. Yeah, yeah, they love bomb. Cannot. It’s got to be a bit funny at the beginning where you’re sort of like, yeah, playing hard to get there. Playing hard to get I. Love it. Yeah. And, and then and you sort of meet and you gotta see if there’s a spark. And then, you know, if there’s a spark, like there’s definitely a big spark between me and the woman I work with in London. And we, we can really. Her name’s SIM Smith.

And she’s incredible gathering, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. We’re looking at that. Yeah. And she’s, she’s just, you know, for me, we’re just right on the same level about what we want. And she understands my work. She really understands what I’m trying to do with it. So, but this, this flirting, you know, it can go badly. I’ve had terrible conversations

with gallerists on Zooms and they’ve never, ever reply. Like they’ve they’re like, I’ll be in touch and you’re like, you’re never going to be in touch. That did not go well. And I think it’s when some gallerists don’t want to know all the references, like they don’t want to know all the deep down reasons why you make the work a little bit more of the surface stuff.

And then you think, well, maybe then I should be working with you because I want to talk about the really stuff, like all the stuff for the reasons why I’m making the work. So like, I don’t know, like when you seal the deal, it’s like it’s kind of a relief. But I think it’s also OK to break up. I think it’s also OK to break

up. Artists break up all the time. And I think you can move on from that. And I think it’s actually good for the Galleras too. Like it’s good for everybody. Like to break up is also very positive. I’ve had a very positive experience from it. And in the end, I’m just like, I’m glad that like I, you know, but it’s not.

No one tells you that at art school. You. Can break up, yeah, yeah. They’re like this. Is change is good yeah, yeah, it’s change is really good you’re. Never gonna get any better. Than this, yeah, you should be lucky, yeah. So lucky. Oh my God, you’re never gonna find another gallery. After this, if you leave This is the Love of Your Life gallery. Yeah, you have to make it work. Yeah, Stay in this unhappy relationship. Don’t get a divorce.

And I think that’s just terrible, a terrible advice. Shocking. Yeah. Yeah, totally. Yeah, I also wanted to ask about Big Ego books. As well big ego yeah with my best friend are. You guys so that that’s still going. Well, no, we put on a little bit on the back burner, but being with Rack recently, we’ve been going through our stock because we’ve got amazing stock. And like Rack and I, we we we met at art school and we fell in

love with like, you know, meant to be together. That’s so cool. We’re very lucky to have each other. Yeah. And we were talking about this word that we use for each other, like best friend, which is very child childhood. Yes, yes, so childhood. So it’s sort of it’s a bit jarring for some people when when I like older people and I’m like, oh, you know, my best friend and.

Yes, we need. Another what are you now like six years old? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You’re. My favorite friend. I don’t want another name I think we keep. It Oh, I think that could be like a beautiful French word for it. Fuck that dude. Let’s keep it. Yeah, I like Aiden and I have a very similar relations. Very. Evocative. Yeah, I think like older people are getting find it confronted. Yeah, ‘cause they’re like, do I

have one? Yeah. And most people don’t. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I think. That’s also. Yeah, I. Don’t. Well, Raquel calls it a phenomenon. They’re interested in the phenomenon. Yeah, of it. Cool, you know. You still have homies like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The divorce. Yeah, You know, here I have. I have absolute lovers. I have. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They’re so cool.

Yeah. Gorgeous. That’s that’s a really important part of living your life that like, I think you know, even artists can figure out sometimes, but like definitely people stuck in the like, sorry to say it, but the rat race like they do be forgetting that. Stuff I wouldn’t say that’s like technically like alternative living. Just to be like, exactly. It’s fucking but true. And have like a bunch of

friends. And it’s not just like you. And your partner and yeah. Yes, exactly and. Maybe like, yes, you know, a friend you see occasionally. Yeah, exactly. No, yeah, it’s it’s a form of resistance. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, push for that. You do, you do. And you need to have you need to go to parties it. Seems to be fucking worth. It it’s totally worth it. It’s also worth it for a long life. Yeah. And a happy life, yeah.

Dancing when you’re 6070. Yeah, who? Growing up? Why not? Yeah, stuff. Yeah. Super important. Yeah, having laughs long. Laughs, Laughs is super important. Laughs are like. Good sleep and lots of laughs, yeah. So the big ego also caused lots of laughs. But the thing that started it all was actually a badge machine. So I said to her, ‘cause I have this idea to sell like badges,

like about 80s movies. And she’s like, I mean, so we started historically markets and then from that it went to secondhand stuff and then we run the magazine and then we folded that because that kind of did its time. Just like any artist run space too, there’s a certain time that it’s good. And then you’ve got to also know when it comes to an end because you’ve got to do your own art

practice and you have other things. And so then we brought up big ego because we both worked together at SAFO. So we learned a lot about we’re both book obsessed. Like Rack is book obsessed like crazy. I’m book obsessed. But she’s more so cool and she doesn’t have a kid, so she can really like, dress her house in this amazing, kind of like

paradise, amazing, incredible things. So cool. And then then we we realize that we’ve got this knack for like spotting a rare book, and we’re also got a knack for like making a book rare or even just posting about it in an enthusiastic way. Nice. Nice. Yeah, so. Yeah. Yeah, that’s actually Transformer Book ‘cause there’s quite a few Instagram accounts

that do it. And so they would follow like they would they would ski our. Ideas. So we would post a book that no one seen, ‘cause I also saw some Berlin. Yeah. And then they go online and scoop up all the cheap copies and then they’re all going off market. And then they all go up to like from like interest, you know, 4 bucks to like, you know, 100 and. 50 That’s a real racket.

I love it. It’s a total. Racket that Racket making money like. Books. It’s a yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it’s a wine. Yeah, for like 2 bucks. And then you’re like, it’s like you know the value of it. There’s one particular super rare and she’s found it a few times. It’s called a book about Australian women. Cool. And it’s a photography book about Australian women. And it’s worth about minimum price is 1500.

I’ve heard about this book. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And we’ve had it a few times and we always sell it in the end, sometimes for a little bit of discount, but usually not. And I think last time she bought it was like 5 bucks. But sometimes it’s in different sections of the second hand book shop or wherever we’re looking. Could be. Could also we source everywhere like we will look, we will look

in a free box, We will look in that little, you know, those little St. libraries, St. libraries. We were just. Like, you know what actually? Oh, Aiden. So Aiden here has got the divine touch on the street libraries. Really particular, we’ll go to the street library and I’m like, it’s like vegan recipes to impress your auntie. And then like this book by like,

like Matthew Riley. Always a Matthew Riley. And then it’s like, and then Aiden will pull out like 12 forbidden names for rare Australian flowers. A pictured. I’m just making this up, a pictured inscription book. And I’m like, where did you get this from? It’s like you’re producing a book. Yeah, it’s got the good. Touch like always get a book from a street library.

Yeah, yeah, there’s a street library near my work, which is sweet. So I on my lunch break, I get like a 1520 minute lunch break and I go and I sit next to the street library and I like have a look and I’m like often walking back in like a really nice. That’s cool, yeah. I didn’t realize this could be this could make some money. Yeah, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It can make some money. We.

Can make some money, but you have to curate it. Yeah, you can’t just be random. You have to have a like a. Core like a There’s a bit of a running joke here, which is like we’re looking for a genius. Bit like the last business. The idea we had was healthy tobacco. Oh, oh, I’ve had a lot of special ideas, too. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Hell and I both had many businesses we haven’t done.

Yeah. But the book one, the. The main thing is we love finding the book. This is the fun part. Yes. That’s a good part. It’s like, it’s a total drug. Yeah. It’s an endorphin rush. It’s like, boom, I got him high. Yeah. The worst part then posting it, photographing it. That’s all nice. Yeah. Going to the post office, getting the money paid like I’m like. Boring.

That’s why we haven’t done it for a long time. We’ve both been too busy. Yeah, but. Could you do it internationally? Yeah, yeah. So I sell for Berlin. Yeah. And she sells some. Cool. We’ve got a Berlin office and our Sydney office. I love it. Yeah, that’s cool. Exactly. So then I normally sell to people in the US or I’ll let people, Australians know if they see it. I’m like, you know, I’m sending it from Berlin. Are you still interested in some

people don’t care about the cost of things and they’re like, send it. And then some people are like, no, no, no, that’s fine. Yeah. And I’m like, fair enough. I’m the same. Yeah. So I love it. Yeah. But Rack, you did a review on her work. Yes, we. Did and she’s an incredible artist and we should definitely interview. Her we would love to.

Funny and The thing is, is that we were laughing ‘cause she said if I came along they would never get a word in. ‘Cause when we’re together, we. Don’t let anyone else speak. That’s cool. Yeah. And we just run the show. Yeah. Awesome. So we would. We would. Just get our boys. Yeah, that’s awesome. Yeah. So that’s why it’s good to split us up. That would be OK. Yeah, yeah. OK, cool. Yeah, yeah.

Keep them separate. Incredible. She’s incredible. To Berlin before yeah, yeah, true. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it’s. Good, yeah, but you need. You need. We would love to. Yeah, we’d love to. It was such a short show and we saw it. It was like. She liked the review a lot. She’s like, they got it, they got. It we just. Saw it and it was another like Parramatta Rd. thing because it wasn’t open. Yes, yeah, like perfect.

We’re looking back through the window. Which exactly? That was a nice little it was. Snappy. Yeah, it did. We’re big fans of Parramatta Rd. because we both we, we lived together on Parramatta Road, on two sides of Parramatta Road, and we’ve done a lot of work around Parramatta Rd. We’re kind of obsessed with the the artery of Sydney. It is one of those numinous spaces on city, especially this

pot around here. Like this. Yeah, yeah, the time capsules, the time capsules on Parameter Road, look for the time capsules, yes. I always think look for the portals, they’re still there. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s a unique, it’s a unique artery, it. Is yeah. And it’s so funny because it’s like, and, and it’s got this funny like sort of, yeah, like a portal.

Like there’s a couple of aspects of it where when I’m walking, I feel like I could be in America, like even in the 70s or something. Yeah, yeah. You know, And then your snap back and it’s like, no, I am in Australia. Like, yes, yes. But yeah, it’s got these funny like this funny sort of rundown economic sort of destitution. Yes, but it wasn’t always like that. No, and it wasn’t.

Yeah. So it has the spirit of that like industrial, like industrious, like sort of old, old. Yeah. Although like old, although like fronts of those old buildings are like, you know, 18, nineties, 19. Hundreds. It was a bit fancy at different. Points and then like the traffic is just. Like a river. Like Corroded? Just made everything dusty and gross. And then you have like, you know, the, the wedding shops,

you have the brothels, you have, you know, the, the motorcycle shops. You sort of, there’s a couple of kind of key things that happen on Parameter Road, but then you have these like little memories of when it was like a special place to visit or yeah, yeah. And also ornament on the buildings can be very beautiful. Yes. So I like to just take a walk and you feel like you’re so

tough walking on Parameter Road ‘cause you’re like, no one does. Yeah, yeah. It’s like, I know it does feel tough, yeah. You feel like you’ve got like PPE on and like galoshes and that. Yeah, I. Want to shout out I don’t PPE. Saw this, it’s an artist Kate McGuinness and she was in the SCA grad show. Oh, I think this video was called. I like to take long walks.

Oh, wow, And it was one. Oh wow. Oh. Yeah, she’s got that. One artwork, she’s got this. Amazing one. This is this amazing one which is the Chinese medical centre. Hmm. Don’t tell me what’s wrong with you because I will find out and tell you. Yeah, I love that. That one, now that’s a good tattoo. That is a good tattoo, yeah.

I’m so glad that that was. That’s a beautiful photo. We always talk about Parramatta Road and so I thought we should invoke Kate McGuinness because I saw the video and I was like, fuck yeah. So it was like funny and dark and deep. Yeah, cool. Yeah. A copy I’m reading Yes, please do. Yeah, maybe it’s online, but yeah, that someone did it because Matt and I were like, we

should do a. We gotta do a scene about that game. Yeah, so happy to. See Vanessa, Vanessa has done quite a lot on parameter of Vanessa Berry. She’s also a huge fan. So Vanessa wrote this incredible book called mirror Sydney, which is like the go to guide for whenever you’d like want to go into a different area of Sydney. And we messaged her yesterday because we were going to be over in Waverton and over on the

North Shore. We’re like where should we go? And Vanessa is like this place and this place. So she’s she’s she’s been what, making scenes about Sydney for a really long time. They’re incredible. Yeah. Incredible. And like Rack and I have gotten more interest like I’ve got when I when I was doing a project in Berlin, like I hadn’t actually

heard the words like a geography. And I know this is, this is Vanessa’s, you know, at the core of everything she does. And so I kind of, I was thinking about it more ‘cause I’d read about it as a magical act and there has been some discussions within psycho geography of it being a magical act. But that’s my, that’s more my angle that you’re looking for signs and, and omens and you’re

looking for like signatures, things that will kind of talk to you. This is an Oracle kind of thing too. This is like a Roman Oracle thing where you can look at and hear birds and they’ll, they’ll do certain patterns in the sky. Everything can be sort of red like an augury. And I, that’s sort of my more my

angle of sort of taking a psycho geographical walk. And that is also a big part of what’s happening for the murals that are going to be part of the art gallery show. So I’m paying these big murals around the wall, which I still have to do, which starts soon. Yeah.

And I’ve got a lot of other things I need to do. Weeks, right? Yeah, couple weeks, couple weeks. So I’m taking, I just come out of The Cave. Yeah. And I’m literally going. Back at The Cave, getting ready to spring into action. Yeah, yeah. Sure, I had a bit of a day off today and then I’m gonna have a talking night and then I’m going to shut down and people will be messaging me, be like, let’s hang out.

Yeah, yeah, I I won’t even reply right now because that’s the only way to make good work. They’ll just have to listen to the episode. Sorry you can’t hang out with me. Yeah, yeah. Well you need like I I bet was working heaps and then recently I’m not working heaps. Yes, you have been like so eminently available for like the first time in like a year. Yeah. Which is.

So fun, but I’m like. And then I had four days off in a row, like in just a really short work week. And I was like, I was like, I’ve got two days off. And then the next week I had three days off. And then I was like, oh what? Give me one of those four. Let’s see what that four day is like. Then I could really get into a rhythm. Writing a poem? Yeah. Totally up and I was like, yeah, the first day is I.

Had to come back to like, you know, a few two days. I’m like I can’t get anything. Done. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I know. I’m the same. I’m the same I. Know you can’t. Like I’ve had trouble historically like making work and needing perfect conditions. Like perfect conditions just have to. Learn to like, squeeze it in

when Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like it can’t always be ideal. Yeah, I think you need a one day warm up second day to get into it. Third day’s like is like hot. No, I think third day’s hot. 4th day, yeah, don’t be there. Maybe. Yeah, you think you’re gonna get it, but you usually should be tidying up a bit or like finishing something. Yeah, yeah, interesting and. I really feel like there’s a lot less pressure on the 4th day

because if I’ve only got like one day off, yeah. That’s the big that’s. Oh, I know. You can’t do it. I know. It’s like I went into like I, I do like a lot of dark room stuff. And I went into on this weekend after the for the first time after being away from it for like a month or so because I got sick and then I was busy and I got sick again and I went in and it was so frustrating. I was just like, I wasn’t warmed up and it was like the whole day

I was like. I forget like that with ceramics, yeah. And it was just, it was like people were like, you know, it was so such a like such a joy to be able to go and do this thing and like, I’m so lucky to have this space that we can do Shout out Sydney Darkroom. What Sydney darkroom? It’s like it’s like a community darkroom that me and this guy Trey and like a couple of other. People, my friend, My friend Matthew Hopkins needs to know

about this. Oh, cool. He needs darkroom right now. And he’s an amazing, amazing artist. Get him to I will. Get in touch with. Sydney Darkroom. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. Now, if you’re listening, you have. No excuse. Yeah. You have no excuse. Yeah. Talk. Talk to to us, send us a message, Matthew. And that’s too bad. So that’s. Great. That’s great to hear that there’s a community Dr. That’s. Amazing, Cute. Yeah. And so it’s like, yeah, I’ll, I’ll, I’ll do a little shout out

at the end, like, but yeah, just like that, you know, people were like, you know, good for you. Like you got to go in and do your art thing on Saturday and it’s like, yeah, but like, fuck you got. You can’t just do one day, you know, like, yeah, it feels like. What’s the? Point, you know, you know you need a couple of days it. Always says like what’s the just having one drink like it’s like you may as well not even go yeah, that. Was me. That’s the point, just having

one. Drink. I mean, I can’t just have, I like, I mean, like I, I, I could just have one drink, but it’s just like, it ruins by night. It’s like the rest of the night is my body’s coiled up in anticipation. What’s happening? I like I’m. Just like I need to like I like literally. Need to like just funnel it in. Yeah. Get it down. Funny, but not holy. I’m not like, I kind of like it.

Like squeezing pretty deep art experiences into your busy life, whether or not it’s making. But like the other night, it was just like before bed when I was reading some poems and like really reading these poems, like poems that I love. And I was like, fuck, like I’m getting so deep. Like I, I can’t help it. Like I’m having so much fun.

I’m getting so deep before I like watch TV or before I go to bed. And it’s just like, I particularly love poems for that because they’re so small. Yeah, it’s. Just a few minutes. Yeah. It’s just like you and the page. But I’m like, fuck, yeah. I’m just, like, really hanging out with this poem, like, really getting deep, yeah. It’s. Just something like silly about

squeezing that in before like. I think it’s good. It’s good for dreams. Yeah, true. For dreams, some very. Clear dreams. Oh, nice. Yeah, Yeah, yeah. Dreams. Yeah. That are kind of embarrassing. Oh, yeah. I feel like we missed our chance to talk about that. Yeah, we did. Yeah. Dreams. I had like ex-boyfriend show up. Yeah, yeah. Being like I hate you.

Yeah, that’s pretty funny. You have any? Dream Do you have any thoughts on dreams? Oh yeah, yeah, I love dreams. I, I think they’re super important and I gotten more and more obsessed with them and I like to do this hypnagogic thing, you know, where during the day, like I’m, I get up very early. I like to start up very early. And then by about four if now,

because I’m away from Berlin. So I’m not looking after my daughter, my husband, her father is looking after her. I miss her a lot, but because of this then I can have like two parts of my day, but I need to have a little break. I need a little nappy. I need a little. Love a nap? Yeah, I love a nap. Yeah. But I don’t go down too deep. And then so I’ve, I’ve, I kind of read those hypnagogic

thoughts. Yeah. And I try and remember them because they’re very strange thoughts. They’re like poems. They’re very hard to explain. And so I’ll sort of, I, I do this sort of monk, like just like on the floor, wherever I am and just go like into that, like that death pose, like the go to death pose. Cool, cool. And just get really relaxed. Yeah. And then just like position, it can be.

Yeah. You don’t need a soft bed. A soft bed is actually dangerous for me ‘cause I’ll go down to too deep, too deep. Yeah. And the serotonin starts to go. Yeah, soft bed. Yeah. Yeah. Not serotonin though. Is it serotonin? Melatonin. Melatonin. The melatonin starts to release and then I fuck for the rest of the afternoon. So I just like to go down a little bit and then ride that hypnagogic thing. Yeah. But the dream thing, yeah, I’ve

had some, I’ve had some interesting dreams I’ve talked to my psychotherapist about, which has been fascinating. And talking about dreams to someone who’s really interested in dreams is great, But talking about your dreams to someone who’s not interested, you shouldn’t do it. You shouldn’t do it. You’re not gonna get the response you. Want. But how do you know if they’re not interested? Yeah. You know, because I have.

I have endured some dream retellings. Yeah. And then I have thoroughly enjoyed others. You know what I mean? Do you not make it clear? Like when I’m not enjoying a dream, I fucking make it. Clear. You start listening like this. That’s right. Yeah, like I’m. Not that’s nice. You are like that, Yeah, I think. Raquel’s a bit more like that, where I’m a bit more like. Fascinating. Wow.

Wow. Yeah, Totally, totally. Yeah, Yeah, I’m more like that too. I’m like, wow, that’s so interesting. Yeah, I will just, I will just. Oh yes man. Shocking at that. When I lived together, we had some horrible housemates and Matt would just be trapped with them. Really. I was too meek. I was a meek little bad. Be like alright see ya. Sorry, we had some fucking wacky

house with yeah. I I’m like you. I’m like you. I put up with it. Yeah, I put up with. It these days I’ve I’ve, I’ve grown out of my shell a little bit. Yeah, I’ve, I’ve, I’ve come out of my. Young boy, boy, thank you. You’re never really trapped in conversation. That’s true. I’ve got the buck off. I’ve gotta go get an ice cream now or just whatever. But.

I’ve got a little bit better at it too. Yeah, I. Have. That was the one thing that when I just turned 30 recently and I was like, you know what? I just realized that the last three years, like I’ve actually really started growing up and like I can like get out of this fucking like this conversation when I just like I don’t want to know about. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, really beautiful

experience, like just for all of our young listeners, young whippers that was listening like it was such a beautiful experience, like getting a little bit older finish. Yeah. And I think also when you get a bit older too, you get very cheesy with who you spend your time with. Yeah, true. And you know, there’s some people that I just love spending my time with. And I usually will tell them I’ll be like, I love spending time with you. Yeah. And I’ll be like, I really

enjoyed the day or like I had a really fun time and I’ll let people know that. And then this, you know, I, I’ve had to meet a lot of new people since moving. True. I had a lot of new people in my life and I meet a lot of new people in Berlin all the time. And so I’m always sussing it out and some stick ‘cause I’m like this, you know, like I always kind of feel the energy

afterwards, that word energy. But like, I always feel like, how do I feel now after I’ve just been with this person? Like, do I feel exhausted or do I feel like, like, I, I’m excited, you know, like, I want to see them again. And then recognizing these feelings because when you’re younger, everything’s like, oh, like, oh, they were OK. They were not. And I think I think they’re good

reason too. Like I think, I think it’s good to be like. Because they like you doesn’t mean you have to like them back. It’s an interesting. Thing totally, but I think like I don’t, I don’t think I want young people ever to learn that lesson. Do you know what I mean? Like like before you turn 27. Or Oh no, definitely no. You have to be open to everything. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And you have to suffer. Yeah, totally. Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, you do have to

suffer a bit. You gotta suffering if suffering your jocks is my friend, Nat used to say because suffering your jocks, I think that might be where we’re going to leave it for today. That’s like. A long long chat, but like. We could, yeah. I mean, no, that I’m saying we could even like do a Part 2. But like, we’ll get you next time you do a a show at a big

gallery. Yeah, yeah, maybe I’ll be for sure, you know, Yeah, I’m happy just to be here. Yeah. And I’m having a lot of fun. Yeah. I, I, I think we could do a whole episode around like my opinions on the worst parts of Sydney. Yeah, totally. And that’s the bad shit. Yeah, we could definitely compare notes about that stuff. Yeah, but. I think it will be kind of some of it sort of in the show.

Actually, that would be a nice thing to finish off on. Like what? What are your favorite parts about Sydney? Oh, the trees, There are some incredibly beautiful trees. And I think trees have souls, trees, there’s animism. Everything has a kind of personality and it’s got a thing. And on Sunday we’re going to have this thing called Tree Slot

Day where we just go and look at sexy trees because trees. That’s cool. The Morton Bays. Yeah. Like elephants, Yes. And I think the trees here I just extraordinary the smell in the morning. The you know, the miners are a bit murmur but I don’t mind. I don’t know. I love the Ibises too. Like everyone got the wrong idea

about the Ibis. Wow, we saw this Ibis today. Sorry. Being the bin chicken, I’m like, yeah, here’s the God Thoth. Yeah, yeah, the. Egyptian God of Thoth of knowledge, you have got it all wrong. Yeah, this ain’t no bin chicken. Yeah, we saw this like we were walking around Marrickville today, just like shopping, the secondhand shopping and shit, and we saw this Ibis on the ground like dead.

And then we saw this cat cat like standing over it. And then I took this photo of like the Ibis with like the shadow of the cat like standing over and it was just this like amazing, like wow, like still, you know, I had my camera in my head all day, like looking for something. And then this like gorgeous thing like appeared. Wow, wow, what the fuck? We had a weird. Day and the Thoth together. Yeah, very interesting, very

Egyptian. Yeah, we had such a weird day. We met all these people, like all these people were just being really chatty and like open. And we like we would. We did the thing when you go to four or five shops and then you see the same character, and we sort of started talking to people like this old Greek lady was like, you’re following me. We’re like, yeah. And then we found $10 in the Woolworths, like, yeah, it was a.

Huge. I love finding money. Yeah, and say I. Love finding money I found once. I’m just gonna cough one second, okay? Yeah, my friend found money in a in a record. Yeah. And then that night, he spent it all on a fancy meal. Nice dad, What kind of money? Can you stop? I love money. Money. That’s cool. Yeah. OK. Well, yeah. Listen, it was so nice to talk

to you and to finally meet you. Very easy to talk to. Both of you could talk a lot longer, but. Yeah, I’m sure we could. Yeah, yeah, we’ll definitely, we’ll definitely meet up again and. You’ll have to do a review of the show. Yeah, we will. Yeah, we’ll definitely go and look at the show and talk about it. Tell. Me anymore about it ‘cause I was gonna start. Asking yeah, no spoilers, he’s saying. Exactly does it look? Like, yeah. What does it mean?

You know, you’ll see it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And we got like a really privileged insight to like the show, you know, for, you know, speaking to you like this. And so do all of our listeners now and they can check it out at the Art Gallery of NSW from I’m just going through the 7th. 22nd of June. 22nd of June, yeah. There’s gonna be 3 performances, Yeah, only 30 people can attend

each performance. So the registration link, you’re gonna have to, well, I don’t know if it’s gonna, this show is gonna be out in time, but yeah, it’s a snooze. You snooze, you lose. So 30 people only it’s a small audience. And that’s three times 22nd, the Wednesday after hours, and then the Saturday 29th.

And then I fly back to Berlin on the 3rd of July. Cool. OK. Yeah. OK, huge. Yeah. So we’ll, we’ll definitely try and register for that like now as well. Sorry listeners. Oh, the link’s not up yet. OK, Yeah, it’s got the links gonna go live and I’m gonna just put it in my stories. So yeah. Or maybe I’ll just do a quick post about it.

But it’s. Yeah. You snooze, you lose. Love it. I don’t want a big audience. We can’t. We can’t do it in the space. Yeah. Yeah. And puppet shows are for, like, big or no, I want to say. Yeah, my grandma was a huge Puppet tree fan. We’ve got all these. Oh, really? Yeah, she would love puppets. And she was a big, like, she was a real loud person that she lived in Cyprus for most of her life.

And she was like, a real, like, puppeteer. And she had this whole little like, entertaining the kids thing going on. And yeah, I never used to get it when I was a kid, but now I like, I wish I had more time with her in retrospect, totally into that because. She must have been weird then. She was such a cool lady. I’ll, I’ll talk to you more about her after the pod. But yeah, anyway, we should leave it there for today.

Thanks so much. We’ll put a link to all of your stuff in the show notes. Very good. Let’s do some housekeeping at the end here. The hung up tip line is now open. If you have any anonymous tips, gossip or at school scandals you would like to report, or anything positive to go to the link in our bio on Instagram, please tell one friend about the

show and beg them to listen to it and send them the links and win win us over in their hearts. Thanks so much for coming on today. Oh, my pleasure. It’s been a lot of fun to come out to Stanmore and be. Here. Yeah. Great. Yeah. OK, lovely to meet you. Awesome. Thanks. OK, well bye everyone. See you later. Bye bye.

The.

Show notes

Word Cloud: Augury - Omens - Oracles - Ornament - Numinous things - The Demiurge - The Dimon - The Star and Magic  Emily on IG @emil.hunt Follow us on IG at @hungup.au  https://www.artgallery.nsw.gov.au/whats-on/exhibitions/emily-hunt/