5.5 The Clare Wigney Interview

Transcript

Everyone on. Okay, we’re on. Okay, well, welcome back to Hung Up. This is episode probably three of season five. I’m here with my host Aiden, as per usual. G’day. And we’re joined tonight by Clare Wigney. Hello. Thanks for having me.

Yeah, of course. Yeah, this is Clare’s first radio show guys. And first time holding a microphone. Yeah. First time on the mic. Yeah. Yeah. You’re doing great. And first time meeting you both. Yeah, true. Yeah, true. Such a pleasure. We’ve definitely all been to the same show like a few times. Yeah. Yeah. I am. Yes, I do recognize your faces, obviously. Yeah. It was funny listening to your last I think it was the last podcast.

Mm-hmm. You were talking about like, um, the etiquette of knowing people at shows. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. True. And like you may have met once or twice. Yeah. People forgetting people or pretending that. True. Yeah. Yeah. And I was like, I really hope I haven’t got that with them. Yeah. Oh, that’s funny. Yeah. That’s funny. Yeah. That’s funny. We’re like, you’re on the list. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That would be funny if we got a list going. Yeah. I don’t think so. That would be cool.

Like, do you think that happens in Sydney? Do people forget you and they’re like, oh, well, like, you’re not cool enough. So, like. Yeah. I tend to be kind of forgiving about it. But I get nervous that I have met someone. Mm-hmm. And then I go to be like, oh, I’m Claire. Yeah. Nice to meet you. And then they, I don’t want to offend them if I have met them before. But generally, I’m pretty good. But I think as I get older and I meet more people, there’s like just a buildup of people and faces. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It does. It’s getting confusing. It does. Yeah. I know what you mean. Yeah. I mean, it happened to me in the reverse. Don’t worry too much about like this party.

We met four years ago at a 21st party. Yeah. Yeah. I was like. That one’s crazy. I was the guy. And like, I think you’re exceptionally remembery. But like, we had a really sweet conversation after that. But I’m, yeah. Like, I’m not like, oh, if you accidentally forget me or you reintroduce myself, like you’re dead. Yeah. You can tell in someone’s tone. Yeah. Whether like they’re being chill with you or not. Right. Like, it’s not just the thing. Because then I was like, we had this really nice chat and they’re a photographer and it’s sweet. But yeah. Yeah. I mean, it happens. It happens. Yeah.

It happens to the best of us. I’m not. Yeah. Hung up hosts. Even the sweetest. Forget that we’ve met people. The deepest memories of the inner west. Famously like elephants. No, not true. What was I going to say? Fuck. Oh yeah. Can we talk about like, get the elephant, speaking of elephants, elephant in the room. Like, let’s talk about Louis Vuitton. Like, what happened? What happened with the show? Everyone wants to know.

Yeah. It was a pretty interesting experience. And I will start by saying, feel very lucky to have had that opportunity. Yeah. And it definitely wasn’t something that I like would have passed up. I show with China Heights and they have a relationship with, I don’t really know who. People. People. Yeah. Louis Vuitton related.

And the store in Brisbane has like an exhibition space. Cool. Yeah. So, I think I was the second or shall and Otis. Carrie had a show there first. And then I had one after. And being totally honest, when they did offer it to me, I was pretty hesitant. I just like morally luxury fashion.

Yeah. And like my interest in art making and creating. I’m definitely, as I’m getting older and learning about myself and the world around me, moving or wanting to move further away from a commercial approach to art, which I think I entered into at a really young age anyway.

Yeah. Fair enough. Yeah. But I did it anyway because cool opportunity. Yeah. Might as well. Not something I’d done before. And yeah, the store in Brisbane in the city is in like an old bank. Cool. Huge. Like if you picture the kind of, what era would you say? Like sandstone.

Yeah. Like 1800s. Yeah. Like late 1800s. Like the light, you know, the library. Yeah. Yeah. That whenever that was that style of building. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Convict era. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Old bank. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. I had like 23 paintings or something in there, but I, it was pretty funny because so I don’t really know anyone in Brisbane and it was like a bit hard and expensive for friends to come up.

Yeah. My family came. That’s cool. It was like me and my family and Ed and Nina from China Heights and then all these Louis Vuitton VIPs from Brisbane on the Gold Coast. That’s awesome. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I had some really interesting conversations with them. Yeah. The patrons. Yeah. But I, I’m not sure they were that keen on my paintings in that.

Okay. It doesn’t land with the light. Like visually. Mm-hmm. Sure. Was it in a, like, like it’s a show and it’s in the store room. They’re like clothes still or it’s like in its own space. Yeah. It was like on this mezzanine level around the store. Yeah. Um, and then people like these VIP patrons were coming in and looking at the paintings, but then also like buying things.

Yeah. And I’d never really been in a, uh, store like that before where there’s like 20 people working. Yeah. And like really working to sell products. Yeah. Yeah. To these people. Every single pair of shoes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Could be a big thing. Yeah. It is a funny sort of. Interesting. Yeah. My mind is making my mind go crazy. Yeah.

It’s, it doesn’t make sense, but then it makes like so much sense. Yeah. Like, yeah, maybe not your paintings or necessarily like Australian stuff or, but like, obviously like painting, like particularly painting does have a place like it’s, you know, next to like luxury goods. Yeah. Sure. Yeah. Totally.

Yeah. Yeah. Of course. And a lot of those fashion houses are massive patrons. Yeah. It’s true. Yeah. They do. In Europe. They do be doing that. Like I went to this, um, Hermes gallery in Tokyo. Yeah. Have you guys seen that? Kind of gorgeous space designed by a really famous architect, Renzo Piano, who’s like done

a couple of the Sydney skyline or one of the Sydney skyline buildings. Right. And it was like, I went in being like, I’m going to fucking write a mean little review about this. And then I got there and I was like, pretty good show. Like, you know, I can’t really, I couldn’t, it was okay. Like I couldn’t, I just couldn’t knock it. I was like, yeah, they’re, they’re putting their like bussy into this. Like it fucking works.

Like I’m like, okay, fine. Like, but it was so funny because you go into this tiny shop where they’re selling like $500 scarves and like, you know, $10,000 shoes or whatever. And you’re like, yeah, I’m here. Yeah. Yeah. I’m here for the thing. And they’re like, yeah. And then they stick you in a lift with like a person like minding the lift. The lift was like made like a jewel.

It had this beautiful like background that like the lift runs past and like it sort of changed because of like these sort of fins on the lift made it like this cool visual effect. It was gorgeous. Wow. But yeah, it was like, wow, they put a lot of money into this space. Like just to, just to have an art space like in Tokyo. Yeah. So yeah, it’s true that there’s like, you know, like they are sort of putting money into

this stuff. These guys, I mean, that was the main thing that I was thinking about. It was like, while I was there, it was like the, just the idea of like, we’ve talked about this before for a long time, Aiden. It’s like this idea of altruism. Like, are you really being altruistic or, you know, in that way? Or like, is it a real philanthropist or is it just like, is it another form of marketing?

Like, you know. It could be both. It could be like the marketing first and cool. Like an artist sold some work and they can pay their bills for another year or yeah. Yeah. I like that. It can be both. It’s all pretty messy. Yeah. True. Or I went to the Prada Foundation Gallery in Milan, which is like a massive museum.

Right. Yeah. And the building was incredible. The collection in there was like Damien Hirst and Jeff Koons. Yeah. A lot of money. Yeah. Actually, Damien Hirst was one of the first contemporary art I saw when I was like a kid, when I was like five. Oh, yeah. I saw the, what is it?

The sharks. Did you? Yeah. Yeah. But it was super young. Yeah. Cool. That’s cool. Oh, dude. That’s awesome. The five-year-old seeing the shark. That’s a cool image. Wow. Tracy Emmons bad. I was like, okay. Yeah. Okay. Cool. Yeah. Now it’s kind of a joke. But yeah, sorry. Go on. Oh, no.

That’s actually really funny. Yeah. Because it kind of is the perfect piece of art for a kid. Yeah. A shark. Totally. Totally. A cool shark. Yeah. Yeah. That’s kind of sick. But the Proud of Foundation was interesting because a lot of the works besides Damien and Jeff’s, I suppose it was like a lot of contemporary social sort of commentary work, which was interesting,

I thought, in that space with that brand or foundation. And then it was really, it was, for lack of a better word, a bit dystopian. Like the one space or one level, it was like the building’s massive and concrete.

One whole side of it is all glass. So, like Florida’s ceiling and the room is like very, very high ceilings. And I was standing looking out on the other side of the building was just like kind of like a wasteland and migrant workers like bulldozing the site.

Wow. Like out on the street. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Just that alone, I kind of, yeah. Yeah. Felt a bit lost faith in the- Yeah. In like the mission. All the illusion was shattered. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. I mean, it already was with the Damien Hirst, like Dead Fly painting.

Yeah. Yeah. Not to be too much of a hater. Sure. You’re allowed. Yeah. Yeah. This is- Safe space. He won’t listen, don’t I? Yeah. I think he’ll be right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. It’s like, I mean, you know, the, the, that’s a, it’s always a pretty thin like deal, you know, going into those spaces for like, I mean,

for me anyway, it’s like, you know, I know the spell won’t like last long. Like I do like clothes. Like I really like clothing and like, I like seeing like really nicely made stuff. Totally. And like, you know, you can get that, um, just like people in Sydney make clothes like that well, you know, just about, um, but yeah, when you add all the stuff where it’s

like, yeah, and we’ve got a like $10 million building. And there’s a window to like the rest of the world. It’s like, ah, fuck. Okay. It’s pretty easy to burst that bubble. We saw like, we went to the RTTS studio and saw like Indigo. Yeah. Who made a guest, old guest on the pod who made like a, um, what are they called?

Like corsets. And it was like a thousand bucks and it was clearly made so well. Yeah. But like the space was, I don’t know if you’ve been to that studio in Haymarket. No. They’re arty, but it’s like, you know, you are as far as you could be from like, you know, the fucking Prada showroom. Yeah. Like you go up like a dinky lift and you’re like, it was like some kind of manufacturing

thing. And you’re like, where is it? Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. Tiny little studio. Cool. And it was just like maybe like 30 pieces and like a bunch of sick, like photo books in the middle of the room. Yeah. Cool. And like, it’s like, okay, cool. Like we can see this really beautifully made stuff. Yeah. And we don’t have all this.

Excess. Like, yeah. Like it’s kind of hilarious. I mean, yeah. Like some of that stuff is hilarious. Like, you know, it’s in airports and it’s in casinos and like, it’s like tacky or whatever. Yeah. I grew up on the Gold Coast and there was like, there was a lot of those like big shit, you it was like a big part of the culture.

Those types of like big fucking fancy ass stores. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That is funny. That stuff. But yeah. Was there any more? So I feel like we kind of do, was there any more about that original show that you were going to say before we. Oh, I’ve been looking at pictures of it on the channel. Do you have some pictures? Yeah. But, and so I liked the works I did, but I did.

Great. I like had some interesting. Do you feel like people like sort of, like, are you, are you kind of saying like people like hold you to that or something like a little bit or like. Oh yeah. People do ask me about it often. Yeah. And I’m not like, I, I suppose that’s hard.

Yeah. It’s a great show. Yeah. I was really happy with my works and I got good feedback as well. The VIPs were, they were lovely, but the staff was so nice. Cool. But then I think when it got, and this isn’t like to do, you know, to comment on anyone’s,

I think my approach to art is that it should be accessible and universal. Yeah. And be able to be approached by, understood and appreciated by anybody. Yeah. Cool. You don’t need to have a fine arts background. Sick. Or interest even. But I do tend to make work with kind of morbid.

Yeah. Sure.

Maybe a bit more bizarre, like concepts behind the images. So when I was chatting, and you know, I think in the, in the context of a, a fashion store, a luxury fashion store, the work became more of like a decorative.

Yes. Of course. Product. Yeah. And then when I did go to speak more to like some of the staff members beforehand, they were like, Oh, whose foot is that in the painting? And I kind of had to be like, Oh, it’s from like a missing persons. Yeah.

Yeah. It’s kind of, I think they were just like, Oh, what? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For someone who’s like, not like looking up, like, you know, obscure artists and like, you know, in that world. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like, Oh, wow. Okay. That though. The idea is, and I’m sure like, if your work was like, so ugly, like in air quotes, like

you maybe wouldn’t have been able to show it. Like it was brutal. Yeah. So there’s a level, but it’s interesting. Totally. Yeah. At least on paper art can, a painting is allowed or intended to function in a lot more ways than like a luxury product, even a pair of shoes. Yes.

Yeah. You know, like you can be like, yeah, nah, like this isn’t meant to be like nice in any way. Yeah. Yeah. This is just a really sad one. Yeah. Yeah. But the shoes can’t really do that. No. But it’s interesting before, like the thing you guys were saying about like, also that in a way Prada is like setting themselves up for like their own critique, which is kind

of cool by having this or Louis Vuitton rather having this in the space. Do you know what I mean? Like having something that doesn’t. I mean, like, can I just say like, I mean, a lot of the like biggest fashion houses, like they really do get to say sad shoes sometimes. Yeah. In the fashion, like in the actual show.

On the show. You know, like the last Balenciaga show, everyone was like, it was so sad. Yeah. And it’s like, fuck. Okay. Like I saw it. And like, I think I agree, but like they want to have access to that range. Of like, yeah. Of experience too. It’s just that by the time you get to the shop, like, you know, it might feel different for the people like, oh, I just want the cool looking shoes, you know?

Yes. Yeah. But like the real heads, like who are like all fashion, like, like all obsessed with fashion, like they, you know, they sort of, they, they, they want to think along those lines too. So like, yeah, it sort of makes sense. Yeah. That’s an important thing to say. Yeah. I went to my first like fashion show last week and it was really cool. Fashion week. Yeah.

Fashion week. And I think this was a pretty weird one. This was just like a party in the city. And then like the shows, it was like group shows and the shows would just sort of happen. Yeah. In the middle of the space. Yeah. Two stories. Sounded cool. I was kind of jealous. Yeah. And they would come from like, the models would just come out of the dressing room and like walk down like the fucking, uh, like lane and then down the stairs and sort of through

the party. And then from the stairs, there was like a stage and that was sort of more, but no one was sitting. Yeah. There was DJs, there was multiple bars. So it was a really like low pressure first show. Cool. Cause I, I thought it was going to be like the ones you see, you know, like there’s like 50 of us. Yeah. Sitting around like hardcore.

Um, but yeah, it was really cool. And yeah, I’m not trying to say like fashion is empty and art is the only one, but like there’s definitely space for that and important to remember. Even hearing myself talk, um, the cogs are turning and I’m thinking like fashion can be so subversive. Sure.

Yeah. Sure. Obviously. At its best. Yes. At its best. Yeah. Like I, I work in fashion and like I, what made me like, okay with doing it as an art, like not as an art form, but like as an artist participating in that stuff. Cause like, I don’t like the commercialization of like the world, but what is, what is, yeah.

So it’s sad to participate in, but I was like, how am I going to like frame this even just to myself or explain it to someone? Cause like, even when I take photos, like I had to like take photos of a model like recently and I was like, okay, like this is like, this is conceptually tough for me. Like I don’t have no interest in just like the sex sales thing or like, you know, just

like a lot of the like most obvious like marketing tools that they have for like fashion stuff. But what I realized or someone said was like, um, you know, we’re presenting some type of ideal of a person here. Like, and it’s just this like world of ideals in that sense. And I was like, okay, that’s an interesting thing to think about.

Like, you know, I have a problem with like, um, the ideal of attractiveness that it’s like is generally accepted by everyone that does this stuff. Um, but like, I’m not going to be able to change that myself. So I can like in my own little way, like, you know, pick interesting people or like do my own thing. But, you know, there’s a whole industry revolving around the stuff that I don’t really like.

But what is interesting is like, you know, it’s fun playing in this world of like ideals, which like, you don’t really sort of see that much of like in a lot of arts, like, because it’s too obvious. Like, you know, yeah, I don’t really know where I was going with that. But yeah, I was just sort of giving you guys my, my experience about that, I guess.

Yeah. And you have like grappled with it, I think. Sure. Like you have been grappling with it. Like, is this empty or it’s been interesting to see. And like also to see you getting paid like properly for something that feels like. The wishy-washy. Oh no, but something that feels like at least, you know, a lot closer to an art practice

than we’ve done before. Yeah, that’s true. This is definitely my most creative like style job. Even as a very trendy butcher. It was a very trendy butcher. But yeah, it’s like, I was the only arty motherfucker there, which was funny. You can romanticize any job if you try. Oh, totally. And I did it, bro.

I got, I have rung every last bit of like, oh cool. Like out of. Yeah. So yeah, we’ve been there. Yeah. Yeah. Romanticizing the job. Yeah. Yeah. A good few months where everything is beautiful and I’m like Patterson mode and I can just be. Oh yeah, true. Yeah. And then. You get the job honeymoon. Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. You were talking about like installing stuff earlier.

Yes. Do you want to, can you tell the story about the last show you. Where I’ve been today. Yeah. Or like the other one that you were talking about before that. Oh, Ramsey’s. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yes. Well, now we’re taking it down. Okay. It’s pretty. Yeah. Shame. Yeah.

I know. Yeah. It’s a shame. All the strobe lights. Yeah. The rainbow. The smoke machines are going to get backed into the truck. Plasmas. Yeah. You had a funny like characterization of the like the people that run the like show. Yeah. Just to tell our listeners a little bit about installing Ramsey’s. Yeah. At the Australian Museum.

That’s right. For those who were not aware. Yeah. It feels like it was like this big blockbuster. Yeah. I mean, it sounded like it was. Yeah. Yeah. Speaking of like the commercialization of literally everything. Yeah. Ancient Egypt. Yeah. Beautiful. There’s a great one too. Yeah. The gift shop. Yeah. Actually to go to sidetrack.

Yeah. I always think about seeing the Hilma F. Clint show. Yeah. At the Art Gallery of New South Wales. And like exiting through the gift shop. Yeah. And you could buy a Nordic barbecue.

It was like Hilma F. Clint themed. Yeah. The Hilma F. Clint stubby cooler. Yeah. She would have loved it. She would have loved that. Nordic barbecue. She would have been like, what’s that device though? Is it a torture device? Yeah. That’s hilarious. Coasters. Yeah. What is the religious significance of this device? That’s funny. Yeah. The spiritual. Yeah. But yeah.

That’s funny. The Ramsey’s gift shop is crazy. I kind of, we finished installing it after they, or before, sorry, they finished putting all the gift, the souvenirs in. I remember I had a little sarcophagus that I got from the museum when I was a kid, which

I loved. I think I kept my teeth in it or something. Yeah. Yeah. But there was so, yeah, so much waste is involved in everything. Yes. Yeah. Especially, I didn’t really realize, I mean, you don’t realize like going to museums and shows. But installing it from start to finish is pretty, yeah, it’s concerning.

Yeah. Like not to be too cynical about everything. No, no, go off. Yeah. But it, yeah. Yeah. The Ramsey’s show tours the world with an American company, the World Heritage Exhibitions company. Mm-hmm. And they also do Machu Picchu as a show.

Yeah. I think they have a Titanic one and an Auschwitz one as well. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and Tootin’ Carmen. Yep. Yep. King Tuck. Yeah. As they call it. Got it. But when they’re not, like I, Amir, one of the guy, the American guys working on the show, I saw him again today for the first time in six months because we finished six months ago.

Mm-hmm. Now we’re taking it down. Mm-hmm. And I was like, what have you been doing back at home in between install and de-install? And he was like, oh, just, just like Disney stuff. And I was like, oh, like, what do you mean? And he was like, oh, you know, just like installing in, in Orlando, Disneyland.

So when they’re not dealing with ancient Egyptian artifacts, they’re doing, most of them do like monster truck and jet ski. Awesome. Like super shows. Oh, my God. Yeah. Yeah. And it kind of shows in the, in the Ramsey’s, um, exhibition that like my favorite, when,

when we were first installing it, I had all these like ideas and I found it so like, like, um, sinister, but inspiring. Like, yeah. Yeah. I’ve been in my practice as a painter, I’m thinking about simulation and objects of imitation

and the construction of history. And there, we installed this like gold Pharaoh’s mask, death mask in a glass case. And then on either side, there was a plasma that had a 3D animation of the mask that you were seeing in front of you, but like rotating.

Yeah. Yeah. And like, then there were like rainbow lights and, um, I like was writing down all these ideas the first week and then weeks went on and on and it just, it became more just like, this is just like work. This is work. And I can’t even feel inspired by this anymore.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That’s disappointing. Yeah. But it, yeah, it, it’s pretty interesting dealing with, um, such old, beautiful artifacts. Um, and they feel like kind of, and I’ve spoken to a lot of people who went and saw the show

who share this kind of sentiment that the objects became, they almost felt like fake or like nullified by the, the super show. Interesting. Surrounding it. Like the screens and, and the sounds, it was like really overstimulating.

Wow. Yeah. Um, yeah, that, that makes sense. Yeah. It’s like, I mean, especially for like an American audience, I can see how they would want to Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It just sits there. Like, yeah, I, yeah, I get, I get why they would do that. We need more. We need more. Make it like sexier. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And they’re like, know how to do it. Cause they do the monster truck show. Exactly. I think I spoke to one of them about it one time that, yeah, I, they’re a very, they’re a very interesting group of people. Yeah. Yeah. They sound like fascinating.

Yeah. I do provoke like Pearl and I, who I work with. Yeah. Pearl Smith. Yeah. Shout out. Yeah. We accidentally, yeah, we got overheard kind of making a bit of a joke about the, the, You were like, these fucking yanks have to make everything so stupid.

And that was on the first day. Last year. I like it. Giving the fucking hard roadies a bit of bullshit is kind of cool. Yeah. They can fucking take it. They can probably take it. But their work ethic is, is crazy. Really? Like what? Well, when we, we usually install, we have a really great routine at the museum.

We’re like, we’ll start at eight or eight 30. Then we’ll have half an hour to 45 minute tea break at 10. Nice. Then we’ll have lunch at 1230 for an hour. Then we’ll have like another 30 or 45 minute tea break at three. And then we finish like 20 minutes later. Cool. But they, the Americans came in and observed us, the Australians having this kind of jolly,

relaxed work ethic. Yeah. And they’re like, no. Yeah. Wow. And one of them is what was wearing a t-shirt that said works, don’t care, work harder with a skull and crossbones. But the bones were like bazookas. AK-47.

Yes. So that’s so cool. What the hell? A lot of American flag, gun, jackets, jumpers, t-shirts. Yeah. All that stuff. Yeah. Like all of them. Every single one of them. They love it. I didn’t realize that it was real life. But I mean, this is like roadies. Yeah. But yeah, that’s, that’s roadies.

I love it. That’s so funny. But they kind of, in our own, in our museum, there’s, the Americans came in and, and they have given us very strict, very strict, um, break regimes. Wow. In 15 minutes. Fuck off. Damn. Yeah. Yeah. I struggle with that. I like it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I like it. That would just be for any show from this company. That they’re doing. Yes. Yeah. And, and they want to get it done. They, America sounds hard. They don’t fucking get it, bro. Yeah. They don’t get it. Yeah. Even now. You gotta have tea. I’m making coffee. Two different tea breaks. Yeah. I’m like, I’m like, God, like, we’re at a cafe and it’s a nice cafe and like, we’re

meant to be like chatting and we’re like kind of part of the vibe. So it’s actually really important that like we chat. It’s true. Yeah. It’s silly. Totally. But it’s actually fucking true. Like, I kind of get it. And they’re like, work faster. I’m like, no. Like, I don’t need to polish. Just, let’s just chat. Like, and it’ll be so much. Yeah. This is. Yeah. And I’ve got to come back here next week and the week after and the week after.

It’ll be here every day. Don’t worry. Like the work’s going to get done. Like, yeah. For sure. Yeah. And then maybe if we had a bit more of that lovely slow work, people would actually deal with work without fucking going. My job is like, go, go, go. Like I get, I get. Cause we do, we just have to stay late sometimes if the job hasn’t been done. Yeah.

And sometimes you have to sort of fight for overtime pay because it’s all like really like freelance stuff. So I get it. I do get the, like, let’s just get it done. But like, yeah, I’m very, I’m very like, let’s go as slow as possible in my soul. That’s how I live. I don’t know where this thing came from. Like closing a cafe.

They were like closed a bar and like, all right, we got to fuck. I’m like, we’ve been here since six in the morning. It’s been a long day. Yeah. Yeah. Let’s just, let’s just finish at like 345. Yeah. Like normal closes at 330. I’m like, let’s go slow and finish at 345. Yeah. Eat some chips. Yeah. True. And they’re like, can we get out of here at 320? Yeah. Absolutely. I’m like, but why?

If we run. Like if we absolutely crush it. That’s funny. Like after 10 hours, we can get out 10 minutes early. Yeah. Now the chill vibe is, is what we fucking want. Yeah. Like do the dishes in the morning. Yeah. Can the morning do? Like treat it like your house. Yeah. True. That’s funny. Leave the pot to soak in the sink. Just put it on soak. I’d be so. I’m going to be the one opening here tomorrow.

So yeah. Yeah. That’s funny. Yeah. That’s, that is one really nice thing. Like I live alone and it’s like, yeah, I close and open every night, every morning. It’s always, it was always me. I know who did it. Never. No beef. This is filthy. Yeah. Yeah. Who closed last night? Yeah. It’s awesome. Yeah. Can’t get away with it anymore.

You mentioned earlier something about like thinking about simulation and imitations and constructs of history. Like, can you talk about that a little bit? Like what’s, what’s going through your head at the moment? Like heaps. Um, at the moment, um, uh, especially since Ramsey’s not really.

Um, that’s funny. I guess as a painter, um, picture making, um, is my concern. And, um, for a couple of years now or since I started to write about it doing my masters

at NAS, which I finished in 2021 during COVID. Um, I think my, yeah, my approach to painting and, and making has been, um, orbiting like the constructed visual world, um, and the order of appearances.

So I paint, um, mostly like found imagery or imagery that already exists. Um, and I guess I think of images, um, as simulations of reality.

And cool. Yeah. So the act of painting is, and creating in general is a way of, um, compromising the perceived like certainty of images and media, um, which are in like simulation theory, just fabrications

of, of the real or reality. Which is funny because like, even, even like showing images to a crowd who like kind of gets that idea, the fabrication thing. It’s like, you have to remind people again and again, like we have an appetite to be reminded again and again and again, that like every image you see is like a fiction of some

sort. Like, and there’s like a lie there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It’s just so funny how like every time, like I, I live images, like I work in photography and I take photos like every day and I myself, I wake up and I’m like, what? Like, oh, it’s a fake Obama. Like, right. Got it. You know what I mean? Like it’s getting more difficult. Yeah. Right. Yeah. I mean, yeah.

It’s really convincing. Like not just on that level, but just like on a more like the gear we got to look at. Yeah. Yeah. The gear wants us to think that it’s all right. And I think painting as well as like a, somewhat, it considered to be a somewhat like, I guess

because of its history and its longevity as a medium, outdated or irrelevant sometimes in, and especially because it is so commercialized and commodified. It’s very easy to see it as something that cannot be radical or subversive.

But I see it more as a way to construct or reconstruct these images and to be able to undermine or manipulate the visual data and information and also make the materiality of it obvious.

Yes. So the image as a construction. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So in that, if you finished the Masters in 2021, were you in that grad show then? Yeah. That must’ve been when we saw your work for the first time. Yeah. That’s right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You guys talked about it. Yeah. Yeah. That’s right. That’s where we saw your work. Yeah. Yeah. And then, yeah, it’s really nice to be able to like remember those and then see a few

like, you know, now we have one of your paintings at home. Yeah. Oh, my partner does. And, um, we got, we bought the one from the, um, yeah. So that was like a, um, surprise gift for Gemma, like Aiden’s GF, like a bunch of us

like, and she messaged me about, I did she? That’s cool. Yeah. Ah, yeah. There’s nothing on the back. Yeah. That’s really cool. Yeah. That’s okay. As you were talking, I was able to think of like the rust strokes in that image and it’s nice to have a history of these paintings. And then obviously the China Heights show, which maybe we’ll have some time to talk about

because that show was fucking sick. That was, was that your first time there as well? Yes. Yeah. It was like, it’s raining. And I was like, yeah, this was such a good show. Cool space. Yeah. Tease that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah. I forget the room sheet. I think I have it somewhere. Yeah. I really liked the room sheet as well. Yeah. But yeah, the, something about that, I was also thinking about like, um, like writing, like writing

a poem or like, uh, and starting from, like, I’ve done a tiny bit of like found poetry before, you know, where you start with a text that already exists and then sort of edit around that. But I, I, it’s not something that I’ve done too much of. Um, but yeah, I really liked the idea of like, to me, like editing, like it’s like the

getting something on that page, uh, is, I don’t know, more painful or like less fun, but then once it’s on there and it can start like shaping it. Totally. There’s like a lot, like it feels really natural and really like, it’s like, there’s less, I don’t know. There’s just more of a relationship to work with.

Cause now I’m not, now I’m editing. It almost could have been someone else’s work that I’m editing, but yeah, that was just something that was going through my head when you’re talking about like, instead of like, you know, creating an image air quotes from scratch, you know, like to paint, like thinking of the subject or the composition by taking, you know, parts of an image that already

exist. And then, you know, there’s this translation and transformation that’s happening as you take it from maybe like a digital media or a print or into, into painting. Yes. Um, but yeah, that’s. And a processed base, you know, the, the image or if it is a poem as well, changing, being

able to change constantly. There’s like such a fluidity in creating and making and, uh, and painting, you know, using an actual fluid material, which is really counter to images, which are like concrete and unchanging and media, even on a screen when it’s moving.

Um, I read this really interesting article by an American, a young American writer and poet, Matilda, uh, Lynn Burke. I think it was on, uh, Spike. Hello listeners.

Uh, editor Matt here. Um, Claire’s in a correction and they just wanted to point it out that the article we’re talking about here is, um, still in Spike Art Mag, but it’s by Connor Truax or Truax, T-R-U-A-X called In Heaven We Live in Two Dimensions.

And Claire also wanted to point you in the direction of another essay by Matilda Lynn Burke. Um, also in Spike Art called The Internet is Forever. I’ll link them in the thing. Okay. Back to the show. Um, and she wrote this really beautiful piece about images and it kind of was almost about

like grief and, and remembering or, or memory, which is something I think about a lot. Um, memory as like fluid and changing or, and in the same way that perception, the way that you, um, remember something is the same, can be affected in the same way as when you are

looking at something in real time and space affected by your psychology, you know, your mood, your exhaust level of exhaustion. True. Um, your mania for me. Yeah. Um, and she wrote about how, and I often think of images and media as fabrications as then

therefore deceptive, um, and, or able to, to deceive and, um, because they’re representing or, or depicting, um, the real or reality in a, in a very certain way, which is, yeah.

So it’s just so easily fabricated because then it’s absorbed and perceived as the truth. Totally. And she wrote about referring to, or looking back at pictures, um, to remember, um, and then the, the pictures, the images are informing your current memory or recollection of, of the

person or the time. Um, she was writing, I think about like a breakup and, um, how images are deceptive because concrete and they’re concrete and unchanging. So you have the picture in front of you and, and it is telling you that that’s how things

were. Yeah. It was all, you know, it was great. It was great. Yes. And because time passes, you, you forget things. So then you rely on images to inform you of your memory. Yeah. Interesting. Interesting. Yeah. That’s, that’s, that’s, that’s interesting.

And like, um, thinking like, especially like you as a painter thinking about this idea of deception is like, like that’s, that’s fitting to me. Cause like, I think like, you know, just as like someone who takes a lot of photos, like for me, a lot of the, like the substance of the image that you might see in a, in a book

or in a gallery, um, the substance like stops at the surface of the image. Like if I’m looking into it, whereas like when I look at one of your paintings, like, or, or like paintings in general, especially like, you know, versus flat imagery, it’s like, there’s always a depth beyond the surface, like of the, of the, the thing itself, which

is like, that leaves much more room for like things like deception. Like, you know, like in that painting, I feel like if I turn my head around, I might be able to like see further down the corridor or something. Yeah. Whereas when I like, you know, when I look at a photograph, it’s like, I know, like I printed that thing. I know that that’s just how thin it is. Like, or whatever.

Totally. Yeah. Interesting. That was reminding me of that. It’s called, I had to Google it. It’s called proof. Have you heard of this film? It’s like an Aussie film with Russell Crowe and Hugo Weaving. You like this film, right? I haven’t seen it, but it’s on my list. It’s on my letterbox list. It’s really cool. I can’t like vouch for it completely, but it’s a bit like an Aussie memento.

Yes. I watched it like a good five years ago. Hugo Weaving is blind and he takes these photos and then he has to have Russell Crowe describe the photos. That’s cool. Yeah. And the photos are dated. And basically it’s like his whole memory and his whole life depends on Russell Crowe being

honest about, you know, what’s in the photo. That sounds like a great movie. Dude, we should do a screening of that. That’s sick. That is real. I’ve never heard of that. Yeah. And it’s also the, who was it? Russell Crowe and? Hugo Weaving. And Hugo Weaving. Two of the biggest Australians. The biggest two. Who else have we got? Nicole Kidman. Nicole Kidman. Yeah, Nicole Kidman. That’s cool.

But yeah, I think like listeners don’t hate me if it’s not good. I haven’t seen it in a long time. I know it’s decent, but like I’m not going to fucking watch it. I’m also at M-A-T-T-S-I-T-A-S on Letterboxd if any of you want to follow.

I’m a big Letterboxd fan. Oh, you’re cool. Yeah. I’ve been watching a lot of films recently and haven’t updated. You haven’t been keeping up with it. Yeah. Yeah. I really like it. I just got onto it and I was like, let’s go. It does suit you well. Yeah. Anything that’s like out in cinemas? Have you been to the theater recently? What did I see that recently came out?

I like, the Ritz is good for older things. Yeah. I saw Days of Heaven a couple of weeks ago. I’ve never seen that. It’s so beautiful. Really cool. Really, really beautiful. Days of Heaven. And films all with natural light. Yeah, totally. That’s cool. And the house in it, painting reference, Edward Hopper.

Oh, really? Nice. Wait, I forget if the painting informed the set or the set informed. No, I think it was the set was, the house was like modeled off this. Yeah. Edward Hopper painting. Yeah. That looks sweet. Which is cool. Yeah. It’s a really great film.

Yeah. And then I saw. I have seen this movie. Yeah. It’s a beautiful movie. Yeah. Malick’s light stuff is so cool. Like just all natural light. Yeah. The golden hay of Texas. Yeah. True. I felt like I was there. Truly the Monet of American filmmakers.

Yeah. Cool. I was saying. I don’t know if I already. I don’t know if that hay we saw on the back. Speak just. Oh, yeah. True. We saw some. We were in Gleebo earlier. In Gleebo? We really had a day. We saw some like, a lot of hay going on the back of a truck. Really? Yeah. It was so funny. It was like. Yeah. It was like enough for like a whole like, you know, stable of horses who were like.

Wow. And there was these two like, bored looking tradies in high vis. Like, just another day on the hay truck job. Bored but also like, content. Because we were like, looks like a pretty chill job. Yeah. And I was like, there gets to be two of them, which is pretty sick. True. With your homie. Yeah. Loading and unloading. Yeah. Yeah. Looks pretty fun. Where was it coming from? The hay. It was coming from like, where the fish market is, up the hill through Gleebo.

Like, whatever that central. How provincial. I know. Yeah. I know. I was like, where are we? Like, small town, France. Yeah. That’s cool. Damn. Okay. That’s my hay. That’s your hay interjection. I’m happy with the hay. I mean, I forgot. Always good to see hay. I always feel. I feel like it’s a good sign for the economy and for like. Totally. For like, just the livability of our city.

Yeah. You know.

Oh, maybe it like, goes to the like, police horses or something. That’s the only horses I can think that live in Sydney. Do you have any racing? Yeah, we have racing horses. Oh, that too. Yeah. Heaps. Yeah, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. True. They live in Randwick, don’t they? Yeah. They do. I used to ride my bike when I lived in Coogee. Yeah. I used to ride my bike to Nass.

Oh, yeah. For my other old job. Yeah. Fun job. Groundskeeper. No shit. Yeah. Cool. That was last year. At Randwick. At Nass. Oh, at Nass. Cool, cool. I do know. Do you get the little house on the. No. You didn’t get the grounds. No. I had like a locker in the welding bay.

That’s funny. But yeah, there was hay happening in those cold mornings that I was riding past the race course. Cool. That’s cool. Towards Darlinghurst. Yes. The smell of hay and horses. I love that shit. I liked it. Yeah. Yeah. It was nice. Yeah. I’m a huge like, I’m like a bit of a like historical fiction reader, but I just really love the

idea of like, oh, like anyone in like the, you know, 1500s could have also smelt hay in the morning and like a bit of a bit and a bit of a bit. I like this idea of like being connected in history with these really simple things. It’s like, oh, mom made gruel again. Oh, you know, like some like old world thing.

Yes. That’s fun. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That’s. Yeah. Old. Reading old poems is like that. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Old poems about extremely commonplace things. Yeah. And feeling like, oh, shit. like you could we we’re literally feeling it’s basically the same emotion like yeah how old 300 oh yeah like early 19th century yeah 200 years ago sure 230 50 years ago yeah but it’s funny how

and i’m sure with like with paintings as well you can get that right yeah an old painting and you’re like yeah we’re basically like you know we’re still doing this yeah same shit yeah yeah someone’s gonna be the horses like it’s yeah that’s crazy yeah or that’s why i like the still life um tradition always have yeah it feels very um what’s the word like um an acronym oh anachronistic yeah sure am i

using that in the right like an anachronism is like a historical inaccuracy oh yeah maybe not then although like it could also work it could also work like in today like you know if you wanted to say like you know this building was like modern and then you had an old dutch master you know on the wall that might be a little bit yeah maybe that’s i think what i’m trying to say is um it feels

maybe timeless is just the word yeah sure like you know that i i could look at a still life um and did recently in the gallery yeah cool the artists i don’t remember the year i don’t remember but early 1900s yeah yeah um and it you know it it could be now because the items on the table yes the the

light the scene is still very possible yeah yeah which is different i think to other historical paintings yeah which would be a big war scene yes yeah yeah the giant battle scene you know the one wild yeah yeah i love i think i don’t know if everyone had this but i definitely had like a

i’m way too like smart and cool for still lives i’m only into like what do you call it like expanded conceptual yeah yeah painting where there isn’t even that’s very you like a fucking a photo of painting i want you to punch me i want you to punch me just like that’s a gallery like yeah yeah yeah going back to your banking job motherfucking contrarian yeah and then one day i was like

and there was like some little stupid room that i’ve never been in yeah and it was just like a lemon and it was like from 400 fucking years ago and i was like yeah amazing yeah it really does it for me yeah and then we saw some do you remember i’m remembering now we kind of went to sydney contemporary a few years ago oh yeah yeah a joke yeah well we kind of roasted the hell out of it yeah

oh yeah listen to that great yeah thanks there was some great still lives you remember that yes there was some sick still lives yeah i remember who it was yeah sort of in like a corner and she had some paintings on the ground but yeah fucking great i’ll try and find them i’ll do some producing like so people just like dug it but yeah i think i remember like a phone in the still i’ll be back in

a second old and new yeah did you go did you go to sydney contemporary last year no i worked at it yeah i had my million jobs that i’ve had in the last year yes um i was working for darren

night gallery i worked there on saturdays for a while and doing install and then i worked at sydney contemporary with in his booth okay cool um or their booth yeah um darren’s a lovely guy but nice it was the first time i’d been to an art fair yeah and i never went to sydney contemporary

yeah prior to this so it was insane it’s funny hey yeah which was this this year last year last last september yeah yeah yeah what did you think i think there was i was what i liked about it was um being able to see some of the melbourne galleries which i’ve never been able to get down to see true

yep um travis mcdonald is a painter who i really love who shows with yeah that name rings a bell yes really great painter yeah i got to meet him which was cool that’s cool he shows with niagara uh-huh down there yeah yes yeah cool but apart from that i thought that sydney contemporary was

quite um yeah like grotesque i guess yeah it’s a good word for it yeah the only word that it was yeah it felt like all these beautiful like the first day that i was there yeah i saw like and i like

heinie armanius um fine arts sydney booth was so good yeah fiona connor works and then i got to see travis mcdonald true paintings in the niagara one which was across the hall or whatever yeah row yeah but then by the end of the week like nothing felt good anymore everything felt so empty yeah

yeah it is kind of convenient like you can see a lot of like really cool stuff like pretty quickly which is nice if you’re blasting through and you just like exactly how you said like oh cool i like i wouldn’t be able to see this otherwise and like before when we were talking about or you were talking about like painting and sort of alluding to its place in history like i was thinking

there’s this um what was her name it was it what the two like galleries in chippendale uh do you remember matt they’re like they’re right near each other is it i think one of them might have shut down uh on abercrombie street yeah i think so and there was a melbourne artist and yeah

they had like really funny paintings like the bonus oh yeah yeah the naked skeletons genevieve oh yeah that’s right oh i know the name yeah yeah but they had they anyway yeah was it coma you know how they had a space on abercrombie yeah it was one of those like anyway i wanted to get to

anyway yeah yeah yeah the gallery doesn’t matter right now yeah and they wrote this really cool um like exhibition what do you call it like essay like to go with yes yes we’ve been talking about that essay for a while that one that really don’t land it sometimes a piece of writing or a poem just really or a painting or whatever a piece of art just really it really works for you like

and sometimes the exhibition essay you’re like fuck like this is stuff that i feel like i’ve been like it’s been bubbling in ways that i didn’t know and then someone’s really sat down and contended with it and they’re like here it is like here’s the result of like some deep thought and you’re like whoa like like this is this is like this is what i but yeah anyway one of the big things about it was

uh the artist or the writer kind of like having to accept that most work is seen on a screen and most of their work is seen on a screen yes yeah um even if it’s a painting like and she was doing like pretty expanded paintings as well like funnily enough yeah yeah that was a good one but that’s hard

with painting as well and i’ve thought about it a lot um well interestingly enough i really obsessed over travis mcdonald’s paintings for a while and never saw them in person yeah and then seeing them in person well scale is such a yeah a crazy thing too yeah because it’s so important to to a

work to a painting especially to my work a lot of people um say when they do see a painting of mine in person they usually are quite surprised by how large they are yeah and totally their scale and size in person matters when because i guess i’m thinking about like yeah he’s such a good painter yeah um

in terms of like painting images deception then like the ambiguity of another layer of it yeah yeah yeah it’s funny like we talked about this to this guy um taylor who we interviewed uh this is the famous like lost audio tapes like we interviewed this guy taylor morrison who runs a page called we

open on instagram and um it’s like it blew up it’s like sort of puppy like snappy art criticism where he’s like his head’s like floating in front of the picture you know and he like talks expose style yeah paintings in the back yeah and he’s great and he’s like he’s a painter and he just gets like contemporary art and he was explaining a lot of this sort of type of conversational like art discussion concepts to

the greater you know tiktok and i guess it was instagram like art audiences and like right away because he had he had something like ready for this when we were like you’re not going to all these shows you know so like what are you missing yeah and he was like i’m a painter i can tell if like you know the surface of it and the texture of the brush strokes are going to come into it he’s like

they would have told me if it was a if it was the size of a whole wall like they would have shown that you know like see it like or i can just see it’ll be like actually written in the caption yeah exactly so he kind of was like quick to like skip over that stuff i think easy for him maybe because he’s a painter like and he knows this stuff yeah you know intuitively even like yeah it was an interesting

discussion i was trying to push him a bit i was like you’re reviewing a shitload of work yeah you know pumping it out on the gram its content um like can like i know and he admitted this as well or accepted this that like our both of our like deepest like when we think of a time that we had a really deep connection with a painting it was in person yeah yeah always yeah we got him on

that one yeah i was laying in there and then i saw him on instagram yeah yeah i had this moment yeah it’s not happening guys that ain’t happening yeah so he did he wasn’t being a dick like a dick about it but he’s like i i feel that there’s enough on my screen for me to you know yes have a reasonable critique based on my understanding yeah that was kind of the position this is like

my zizek thing like i can’t remember what podcast it was he was like they were like asking him about a movie that he hadn’t even seen and he had like so much to say about this movie he’s like just he’s like finding stuff out about the plot and it’s like influencing his take on the movie i was like fuck it like i’ll let you do that like i don’t have a problem with anyone having that kind of level

of a say or a go about anything like fuck it like don’t see the movie and like give me an essay like i think that’s kind of cool like why not you know like yeah i mean i have to agree that you know if especially in like you know in the world of like physical stuff or like yeah even in a movie like if you’re not going to see it properly like you’re not going to get that last 10 percent of like whoa

like yeah yeah or even like the experience of walking back and forth or up to a painting yes totally yeah i used to in undergrad um work was like painting pixelated images and pixelating images and in a on a phone screen and through a camera like obviously information is smaller so the image

like the the data the visual data is uh like pushed together and the image becomes more legible or readable right right right because it’s like sort of compressed in this way like like literally in size literally in size yeah so optically the information um

make like is yeah neatly grouped together to form an image whereas in person it the squares are bigger so it’s abstracted yeah especially if it’s at a larger scale for sure and that’s why i well not why i but

i do paint um at a in a large scale yeah and so the information is like blown out blown up and when you and and so it does become more ambiguous but um given how close you’re standing to it i mean

that’s like everything i guess but especially more manipulated imagery or ambiguous imagery which i think is like conceptually important to me so then i would hope i think that my paintings are entirely different in person than yeah absolutely yeah yeah absolutely always yeah yeah and just yeah i mean when you say

like it’s important you gotta walk up to an exhibition i even like when i think of this we’ve got the room sheet for the it’s raining show on the table so let’s introduce that real quick so this was a show at china heights um in february of 2024 with pop spagnall maddie feist pole smith and yourself claire

wigny that’s true and yeah we went there and like loved this show we thought it was so cool and we like really spent like yeah of course we like you know spent a good like hour and a bit in the gallery like just like that’s great digging it and like really like you know you yeah we were indulged ourselves and like yeah just before like just i wanted to say one thing about sure like yeah you walk up to a

painting but when i think of seeing the show like i think of this whole day around the show as being part of right i want to i want to know about life in the show yeah like i got a haircut and then i met you and then some dude was kind of like hassling us true and smoking i was so quitting smoking as well yeah that’s true i was like answering my pants yeah push-ups down a lane yeah i forgot about that

and then we have this you know there’s we’ve never been to china heights we’re looking for the place good memory and then we find it and it’s this beautiful like light-filled day yeah and then you’d skip over that and then yeah we end up like it’s the lunar new year like food festival like around the corner and so we like eat dumpling in the street and then meet friends and have fun and come back to newtown i was just like yeah we went to a pub in between so it’s like this whole beautiful like

yeah inspiring it like embodied yeah all of that to me like when i think about this yeah of seeing those paintings as well it’s like all mixed up in this real like lived yeah and i think aiden’s kind of saying that like oh like yes you’re kind of saying that like the the like seeing a good show like this like like sort of makes all those memories cemented together somehow

as well like they sort of get stuck together by like something like that memory and perception yeah if you had yeah how if you’d been feeling bad yeah how would it have i mean i was feeling awful i would i was in a great mood wait were you quitting i was quitting smoking like day one or two but like i was i was actually yeah you were smoking in front of me and i was like give me one and you were like

no one of our friends brought like uh what was it japanese camels which are like your favorite god damn it don’t even remember yeah i’m good and quit just one just one yeah you have i’m 20 days oh really congrats no nicotine nice very proud of you what was your job one yeah which is fun hey i’ll take that out beep except

edit it to 200 days yeah oh yeah that’s that’s huge was it um can i ask if it was vapes or smokes or a combination of combinations that’s the worst let’s play with fire yeah the vape did get me i never thought it would get me in the last year i thought so too yeah yeah sweet sweet vapor we’re developing a

a method of quitting vaping which is you start smoking and then develop a repulsion for vaping and then you quit smoking hey that’s better because yeah people start vaping to get off cigarettes yeah no no no so much worse yeah and quitting smoking is a lot easier i’m sure yeah right like

because it’s like you can have like your mom can be like you stink and like you know like you can’t do it everywhere you can’t smoke in the where do you put the bottom yeah yeah i used to do that when i was 19 living in my first shithouse i still have the blanket that has a cigarette yeah stain a cigarette burn never get rid of it yeah how could i

too much it’s getting yeah we’re getting all excited yeah true bunch of fucking ex-addicts yeah that’s true yeah it’s got that vibe like it feels like a like it feels like a room you could definitely enjoy a cigarette in we have done the podcast comfortably ashtray on the table we have done those parts before yeah and our poor guests were like okay yeah i guess this is one of those 1950s

style yeah true but don’t we all feel good and happy and healthy yeah so healthy yeah yeah running faster than ever yes it’s worth it oh good but yeah um i think it’s a nice way but yeah this embodied criticism thing i really like that and yeah and the whole like context of the space like it’s such a

space and you’re walking up like flights and flights and flights of stairs yeah yeah it was cool there’s like a kickboxing studio yeah yeah all of this is that’s all part of the show for me yeah my mood and matt’s mood and you know yeah i want to strip that away from it because like you said like i could be in a bad mood yeah and i bet i’ve gone to shows in like a bad mood or a sad mood and not gotten as

much out of it but like yeah that happens all the time yeah like you go do something or you have a meal or you go see a friend and one of you or but you’re not in the best mood and it doesn’t work and that’s fine sometimes seeing paintings is hard like yeah it’s not the easiest thing in the world no to go and see like 30 new images and make sense of them yeah totally like it’s a it’s a like i think it’s

a task we have kind of said like you know like you can practice that you know in the past like we’ve we’ve sort of gone off about that a bit about like just like you know like taking my dad to this like love you man but like i don’t think he would have like had as much fun as we did because we’ve done a bit of like you know background research and like we’ve done a lot at this point we’ve done a lot at this

point yeah to be fair yeah so like yeah there’s there’s always going to be a bit of that but yeah definitely very much like the kind of thing that like you know it’s like how could you forget the the whole day now yeah yeah very cool show can you talk about like like because this was one of the first group shows that i went to where i was like well this really is a group and like the show works

together and like i don’t know there was something about the like i mean you guys are all friends right like yeah i mean it’s funny like you you you know it sounds nice but being a creative person you know that not every time you have five friends or whatever like in a room it’s going to be good music or good paintings totally but like for you guys it just seemed to like be there was a congruence

there and it just works like why do you think that is yeah and it’s it’s funny because the four of us are not even like a group of friends in the sense that we like are like four best besties who hang out all the time gotcha yeah we all just um really randomly orbit one another i mean pearl and i spend a

lot of time together um which probably actually shows as well in our practices um we have a really like we’re very similar in our approach to making paintings and pictures and our ideas but um and i live with maddie feist now um but hadn’t have noise that’s only been the last couple months

um we did our masters together um but yeah apart from like those we all have separate friendships i guess is what i’m trying to say yeah yeah sure um but really get along and and i think as well though because we all live separate lives and have in like a social

sense when we did get together to talk about the show um it it could be just we approached it just from like as artists not as friends but um and but in a friendly way so we we were kind of the show was

about us well not about but i think encapsulated our individual approaches to making and creating and we had this really lovely i don’t think they ended up um publishing it we had a really lovely meeting like a month or something before the show just to talk about it yeah and discuss that we didn’t want it to

have a particular theme that it would just be about our where we can find kind of links and connections or even the opposite in all our individual practices and we recorded it and it was this kind of lovely flowing conversation about where we each said something about our own practice and what

we like to make art about in a really simple way i think that’s in the oh my gosh they did yeah yeah yeah i think they did yeah yeah we loved that too yes the transcript yeah yeah it’s such a great addition to the show yes really cool and we have we have a like tradition now of like looking at the

sheet pretty much right at the end like you know once you’ve had like a good helping of all the artworks then you’re like if you really want to stay you can read the sheet and then you’d like look at the title yeah and then what was it was like oh my god there’s like a maddie feist inside a pearl smith that’s right yeah we were like how cool is that yeah yeah that’s fun yeah something like that yeah

it’s a fun way to unpack a show like that yeah was this real harmony and that’s interesting to hear like because yeah we mentioned like good space or like you know a more like thrown together like maybe you do a group show just because you can’t afford it like you can’t afford a whole show and you maybe you’re not as you know as far into uh your career as as you guys um and sometimes you see a group show

where it’s really just like there’s four people we’re sharing the space yeah yeah yeah we’re roommates yeah um yeah and yeah we were really conscious of that yeah i suppose it was such a cool meeting to have because we were like we’re in a group show let’s talk about the nature of group shows

specifically in that we all see you know in sydney or specifically at china heights too yeah we’ve all we’d all been to a few group shows there and yeah and so we had opinions and things that we wanted to not do and do and um it was just really fun we all i think we all have um pretty pretty unique

different like practices that are unique from one another in in yeah materially and in just that approach to you know concept aside the approach to making and what that looks like or means to each of us but when through like the discussion and and through sharing um found yeah it felt like we

were all like holding hands yeah you know yeah and then being able to show the works together yeah and we did like after this conversation all kind of get into the studio and um in solitude privately make our own works but then fill each other in along the way yeah and it was really

just about like encouraging one another yes and celebrating the process of making and and friendship and yeah and yeah really simple and lovely yeah i think fantastic cool that might be a good place to leave it did you have one more thing i just there’s one thing that i want to like just talk a little

bit about before the end and it’s from this transcript and it’s one part that you said that really stuck out to me let me just get it so i get it right it it’s go you go you know what would be cool to just have a really vulnerable show yeah that’s such a cool thing to write sick yeah i just want to hear you talk a little bit yeah about that and yeah we um we all kind of laughed i mean the transcript is funny

because also the title like it’s raining came from me like interjecting and like i was like when we were in the middle of a conversation yeah and it started raining outside and i was like it’s raining yeah and everyone’s like cool um i think yeah the we were talking about the nature of not of group shows but

also just the art scene in sydney we were kind of having like a bit of a um like disillusioned rant about a few things and you know being um a show of four um female or whatever i am

queer um um um people yeah we we were conscious of that yeah and um we were conscious of and are conscious of the art scene in sydney and at large being sometimes like a bit of uh a bit

a bit shy to be like vulnerable yeah and real yeah um and becomes like a social thing that’s a huge problem for your like i’m just gonna say it like if your culture has a fear of being vulnerable yeah like that’s not a good place especially the the one like group who are sort

of training in a way to do that like if you’re an artist you’re practicing that you know like yeah mainly yeah like yeah that’s you know for sure yeah it’s easy to start thinking beyond that and like you know think about career and like social status and stuff but yeah yeah it is it is concerning

when you see stuff like that where it’s like damn like like let’s also just be like really honest with ourselves too right like wouldn’t that be radical like yeah yeah i’m not afraid either to to be um like openly poetic or conceptual yeah i think as well coming from nas pops didn’t go to nas

she went to sca in the heyday which is cool cool very cool um i think i myself paul and maddie feel have pretty strong opinions about nas and the culture there and and what um tends to be celebrated

and there’s a lot of great artists at nas and that come out of nas but what is celebrated comes from this long culture of um masculine kind of like pride and um and yeah coolness yeah yes

which feels really like counterproductive and um and yeah uh like disrupts or doesn’t allow the the the potential for art and sharing to be really personal and communal and vulnerable which i mean

yeah i am even i’m wondering what was going through my head i definitely had some ideas like how to make the show vulnerable or let’s make it vulnerable and i think i wanted that to be like in the writing like the exhibition text but also um yeah i do i yeah have a tendency to use text or

um paint some more obvious images i do wonder what specifically i was thinking about but i do try to always be vulnerable in making yeah it’s important to me cool yeah cool thank you amazing answer thank you so much yeah and i think it shows yeah it shows yeah i hope so yeah good um

well i think that’s all we’ve got time for today um do you have any shows coming up or anything at all that you want to plug this is a great opportunity because the four of us myself pops pearl and maddie are showing again um and it is at the passport store and gallery yep in june

cool i forget the date yeah this will be out before that i think yeah such a great opportunity for us to be super vulnerable and um hopefully a bit radical yes showing again in a um in a store for skateboarders yeah especially like a show yeah that’s a pretty cool gallery

yeah yeah yeah yeah we should yeah yeah the guy shop yeah not always the guy shop passports cool trent who runs passports really cool yeah yeah yeah that was um yeah but yeah the i guess there are things to be said about the broader skating culture yeah yeah yeah i’ll be back on for the skating exposure yeah not all men not all skaters not all skaters it’s going on but you do hear

some things about skating we don’t have time for that today all right guys um well that’s about it for today if you i’m just going to go through our little housekeeping things uh if you have any tips for the hung up tip line the whistleblower line the link is in our uh instagram bio if you think we

should start a patreon message us and say how much money you would pay us for months to do this like twice as much as we do it and finally you got that one friend who doesn’t listen to the show come on just tell them be like you should listen to this you would love it they’ve got claire wigne on talking about like perception and stuff all right guys that’s all we got time for

today thanks very much for listening thank you so much thank you so much okay bye thank you

Show notes

word cloud:  Clare’s show at the LV store; How much actual artmaking can big fashion houses do? world of ideals in fashion ads romanticising shit jobs Yankee Ramses-Roadies the hilma af klint nordic barbecue the constructed visual world and the order of appearances memory and perception  sydney social stuff a discussion on the group show with Pearl Smith, Pops Bagnall, Madi Feist and Clare Wigney called It’s Raining  https://chinaheights.com/exhibitions-2011-2024/its-raining-2024  Great essays related to our chat:  https://spikeartmagazine.com/articles/essay-in-heaven-we-live-in-two-dimensions  https://spikeartmagazine.com/articles/essay-the-internet-is-forever  this episode of hung up was sponsored by the hilma af klint nordic barbecue