5.3 The Anatomy of Bad Video Art w/ Jake Starr

Transcript

Let’s fucking do this thing. Welcome to Hung Up Season 5 Episode 3. You’re coming out next week Jake. Yeah, yeah.

We got Jake Starr on the pod. Say hello Jake. Hey, hey everyone. Thank you guys for having me. Sorry I actually interrupted you there. You’re welcome for coming on the pod. My name’s Matt. That’s Aiden. Let’s get into it.

We just finished rewatching your latest video Jake, which was cool. At Home. Which was nice. For a change because we never get to watch stuff like this at home. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I got to see it at Syrup as well, which was nice. We both did. But it’s funny because me and Matt, it feels like I’ve been talking, or I’ve been talking so long about video art.

And also like talking so much shit about video art. Like I feel like, I don’t know, is it true? Is it true? Is it like the most easy medium to like take shots at? Kind of feels like it is. Yeah, I feel like every single person I’ve ever spoken to about video art has been like, yeah, it’s the sort of thing where I walk past it.

I like take a look at the runtime and then I walk away. Yeah, it’s boring. It’s like the pretentious. And like, it was just funny. And then I’m also always making fun of like, the way you have to see it. It’s like, it’s like, instead of like being in a nice comfy cinema or on my nice comfy couch with like a blanket and like, you know, I’m like in the worst seat imaginable.

Or like, I always like, you know, when you go to like, is this a reference to Jake’s seat? No, Jake’s seat. We’ll get to your seat. Your seat is really nice. The worst though is when I see people that like, it’s the like viewing space is so scary that they’re like, like crouching in the corner of the room. They don’t even use the seat.

I’m like, bro, you fucked up. People are too scared to like sit on your little shitty leather seat. Yeah, that’s insane. Like, they’re too scared to sit even on the seat that you like allegedly laid out for it. Yeah, that’s great. Because then you become part of the spectacle. Nobody wants to be in the front row at that sort of thing. I always see people like sticking to the walls and those little dark rooms in the MCU and shit.

True. You become part of the spectacle. It’s like stand up. Like I was booking some tickets to go see stand up. I was like, do you want to sit in the front? Yeah. In the middle? Or way up the back? Way up the back. So you could like choose not to participate in the video. I don’t want to be a big dog. Yeah. Don’t talk shit to me. But yeah, it was super fun to watch it on the couch, like the second viewing.

Yeah, that was nice. And also like, there was stuff that I missed because it was a bit like, people were chatting in the gallery and I was like, shut up. But like, yeah, it was cool to get like a bit more of the like the comedy of the like news reports, you know? Yes. I was scared. Yeah. I don’t know. That shit was really funny. It’s really funny though.

And we were like laughing at lines and stuff. I always wanted to be able to do that. I was like, how good would it be to be able to watch some of the video art you’ve seen, but like in bed? I know. I mean, it’s so hard. Like, it’s so hard, like, especially as somebody that loves video art and like wants to study it. It’s like very rare that I get to actually sit down with a work that I’ve read so much about and watch the fucking thing.

I know. And you just read like reports about the work. Infuriating. Yeah. Yeah. Before we get to like talking about the work or there was just some, I just had like a bunch of, I don’t know, just not even like fully formed questions, but just like some things I wanted to bounce off you about like how video art works in terms of like being reproduced and like maybe even selling and like, cause there must be like, it’s like, there’s a reason why we can’t just have a bunch of these videos floating around the internet, like on movie.

Yeah. Right. Like it must be a sort of economic thing or. It is a really weird sort of field at the moment with selling video art. Cause I know, I know a lot of artists that do like really well, like the represented by commercial galleries, like Harvey Ives, for example, who’s with Chalk Horse. Like he sells a lot of video art and he just, you know, you buy a USB with it and it’s super high res. You can pop it on a screen, like big fuck off, like corporate screens.

Like corporate screens I’m imagining. But yeah, for, for, for this work, I, I did end up actually doing it as an addition and pricing it, which was terrifying. Yeah. I thought it was so cool to see, like, you’re like, there’s eight of these and then they’ve gone. Yeah. And that’s, that’s it. But, but the hope is the hope is by, by the time they sell, it’ll be, it’ll have, it’ll have screened enough times for everybody that wants to see it, to see it.

Like I don’t want, like, I think the thing is like, it’s finite in its ownership, but it’s not finite in the amount of times it can be put on. Yeah. And screened. Yeah. I also love the image of someone like buying video art and then it’s like on their wall at home. It’s like, it’s just always on.

USB. It’s just always on the TV. Yeah. I love that. What’s that? No one’s. No, that’s for Jake’s work. It would be beautiful if they were doing that. That would be extremely cool. Selling screen savers to people. Dude, when I fucking come up with the healthy cigarette idea, finally crack the code, I’m going to live in a house, just cat a wall, just like a fucking wall of a tower of Babel of like video arts.

A history of video arts. LCD screens on the floor of the bathroom. Totally. Yeah. It’s like a, you got a room where it’s just like an absolute panic room, like, but like in the opposite set. Yeah. When I get rich, which is, it’s probably going to happen pretty soon. Yeah, very soon. We won’t need to be doing this stupid podcast anymore. I’m going to invest in that healthy cigarette. Yeah.

Everyone I tell about the healthy cigarette is really on board. Yeah. People are getting really excited about this. I think. I was telling, I had a chat with, I met Anthony, one of the directors at Syrup, when I went to see your video. We’d never met before. And yeah, he really liked the idea of the healthy cigarette. It solves so many problems. Yeah. It solves like openings.

Yeah. He’s like opening. Could you smoke the healthy cigarette inside? Of course. Around babies. Yes. Well, we’re saying that it’s good for babies. Yeah. It’s good for babies in particular. That’s what we’re proposing. Good for healthy cigarette. Yeah. It’s got like, what are they called? They’re like, there’s like some stupid made up chemical that they keep saying for like, fuck, I don’t even know where I’m going with this.

I get you. Vitamin B12. Yeah. It’s like in Vegemite and shit. I know. Fish oil and protein powder. Yeah. Omega three cigarette. This is really becoming like a quit pod. Yeah. Yeah. Do you smoke, Jake? I smoke. I actually, funnily enough, took up smoking again. Nice. For the exhibition.

Nice. I was three months clean. And it really, we were doing a show. I forgot how fucking awful the lead up to it really is. Yeah. Was it stressful? Super stressful. So I’m really like, I love, I love art. I love making art. I don’t like the act of putting it together.

Yeah. At the end. Yeah. Scary. That’s always tough. Yes. Very scary stuff. This is, this is also a theme that we talk about a lot is like just the fucking, the last 20% of the lifespan of the artwork, like getting into somebody else’s hands somehow. It’s like, just sucks. Like we were talking to Ella earlier about this and it’s like, oh my God, like all the

fucking hoops you have to jump through just to like do this stuff. It’s, it’s exhausting. I’m not telling you about it. Yeah. And like, it’s, that’s one of those things that’s like, I think like almost more than having like, actually like to speak, to be real with you guys, like more than having like all that money is just to have someone who’s like paying me to do it and doing the fucking organizing stuff.

Like, oh yeah, you just do the album and then we’ll take it to the fucking record. Yeah. Yeah. You need some sort of manager. Yeah. A fucking art agent. Yeah. Yeah. I met someone actually on set recently who was like, she was like, oh, we worked for X artist in New York city. Like one of those big, like, you know, artists that like have a studio space in New York city.

Yeah. I don’t remember which one it is for you guys. Yeah. She was like, you know, she was like, you know, basically working at like a content production factory. She was like helping him plan out and, you know, make these crazy, like, I think kind of stupid artworks. Like public artworks. No, it wasn’t. It was like spectacular.

Oh, just too much money. It was in that sort of cause world, you know, where it’s like a bit like yucky, like hype beastie collectible, eminently collectible stuff. And yeah, it was crazy hearing her talk about this guy. She was like, okay, I don’t want to go too hard. But like, she was like, you know, she was like, we designed a board game and stuff. And I’m like, okay, cool.

Like, I mean, it’s just like, I just don’t care about that stuff. Does it like a gallery doesn’t do that shit for you, right? Unless you’re huge and you can really just be like baby mode. Yeah. I’m a child. Syrup. I love the guys over at Syrup so much. They really fucking looked after me on this. Like they did. They did help me.

I don’t fucking drive. And a big part of the work is construction material, which is either really fucking heavy or just like obscenely big. Yeah. And so they helped me transport a lot of that stuff. Yeah. And looked after me in that regard. That’s really cool. I love that. Very community minded.

Yeah. Shout to the gallery. Big shout outs. Yeah. We both really liked that gallery. I think that was my first time going as well. Yeah. It’s very backfill. It’s got a cool shape too. It’s like, it’s a ramp. Yeah. It’s an old mechanics yard. Yeah. And at the back, if you look at the ceiling, you can still see like the old fucking winch is

still on there. That’s sick. I love it. I love it. Yeah. They were saying they might hang, like some artist is going to hang something off that. Yeah. And they’re obsessed with that. Yeah. I was like, what is that? Something that’s big. Jake, do you want to hang your video off the winch? That’s the conversation that was had.

That’s awesome. Guys, get over the fucking winch. It does look cool. It does draw your attention. They’re going to use it one day. Yeah. We’ll get that winch. Yeah. It must be fun to start a space. We’ve been, Matt and I have been talking about like physical space. Yeah. Just like fucking around with it. You know, the prop, the space next to prop has been empty for a while. Oh, fucking spotted.

I know. Right? Yeah. And one night only. It would be like, yeah, pop up. Yeah. Yeah. Pop up. Exactly. Pop up. Exactly. It’s fucking pretty cheap, man. Like, I think I said this on the last episode. Yeah. We should start blowing up the spot. It’s 600 bucks a week. Yeah. Isn’t that crazy? I’m going to put them in my fucking chair. Right? And you lip jump, like, you know, put a few people beds in the back.

Yeah. I mean, you should call them and get the walkthrough. Yeah. You’re done. Fucking bar in the front. Yeah. Yeah. We should call them and just like, you know, put on some hard hats and walk around. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. True. Put some hard hats on and pretend to be surveyors. I like that idea. You just got to make up a bunch of like fake bureaucracy and papers that don’t make sense.

And at a certain point, whoever does own the building will give up and just give it to you. I mean, there’s so much empty space around. Like, it makes me think like, fuck. Yeah. Like that empty field in Newtown. How hard is it just to put a show in that? You know the empty field is good. Is that the old servo? That is. Okay. I got to say words about that. Yeah. Let’s go. That is the most beautiful fucking field ever.

Like every time I drive past it, it’s like there’s fucking dragonflies everywhere. There’s like beetles and shit. Yeah. It’s like. Agreed. It’s a fucking park. Just open it up as a park. I know. Put a couple of soccer goals in there. Yeah. Yeah. For God’s sake. It’s right next to that fucking famous Newtown mural.

Yeah. Yeah. The jungle one. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think it’s very, very on brand. It’s such a good space to have another little like square. It’s a jungle out there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. I remember like getting to Newtown for the first time and being like, damn, like, okay. Seriously. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. When I was 16 or something. When you were like, yeah, 16.

Yeah. That was back when people were like, oh, don’t go hang out there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I had the same thing. We drove all the way from Queensland with like our lives in the back and like rolled up to Newtown. I was like, whoa. Okay. Okay. Did you hear about Newtown in Queensland? Was that? Yeah. Well, I think I visited.

I was like, I went to school. I was like, yeah. I was like, whoa. We don’t have this back home. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. And then, yeah. Like through Newtown, I guess it just was like, everyone tells, it just becomes the place

I meant to go. So like, I can’t even remember how I found out about it. Yeah. Amazing. Amazing park. And also what I like is like, you’d come by on like a Saturday morning and then like the night before kids have like put a little like, I guess I’ll like a little sort of sofa set. Yeah. Yeah. Which is cool. I saw a few like rusty chairs and I was taking some pigs through the scaffolding.

Yeah. Nice. But it’s like, they can’t build anything there. Right. Yeah. There’s something about it. Yeah. Oh, really? So it’s like, you can’t build on top of that for ages. That’s the CSA. So don’t, you know, we don’t know, but allegedly. Officially. Officially. Allegedly. Officially. I feel like if somebody did just, just rock up in the night, take all the fences down

and just leave it like that, it would turn into a public park in no time. Oh, totally. Yeah. Well, I mean, it was just like, yeah. That’s true. Yeah. It would be so nice to have another little green space there. Yeah. Totally. And then it also like, it’s, it’s like, a big prominent space that might actually be nice to hang out in. That’s not a commercial activity on, in all of Newtown.

Yeah. Yeah. Like there’s literally nothing else to do there. That’s like non-commercial unless you’re like a skater or you want to hang at the hub. Return to Camperdown. Yeah. Return to Camperdown. True. Yeah. That little, did you ever go to any of those little, there was some house there back. Yeah. Do you remember that? Someone had a house there. Yeah. And they would have parties like right in Camperdown Park.

Yeah. That was pretty cute. Yeah. I went to a house party there with the, like the guys that I work with at PIX who like, I had just gotten the job that week and they were like, do you want to go out this weekend? And I was like, okay. We all went to a party. It was really cute. I had like really nice chats. Shout out to the PIX team.

Shout out PIX. It’s a location. Did you see the Banksy exhibition, Jake? Or anyone you know? I didn’t, but in my job, I have a customer facing job. And as soon as anybody caught wind that I was an artist, they asked me if I had seen the Banksy exhibition. I didn’t. That’s awesome.

And I refused. You refused. Did you guys? We were trying to get press passes, the media pass to get it. Right at the end, I was like, let’s go see it like for fun. Yeah. But then it was too late. But I was like, I didn’t even know it was on, but then I would be in the city and I’d be like, whoa. Like, what was it called? It was like World of Banksy or whatever.

Yeah. Yeah. But like, I don’t know how I feel about Banksy. Cause like, what is the movie? Like exit through the gift shop. I was like, you know, I watched that when it came out. Yeah. Yeah. 16 or something. I was like, Banksy seems pretty like, it’s pretty cool. Like he’s taking some risks. It probably was pretty cool in the very first two years of the practice. Yeah. I just got lame real quick.

I feel like he rode like Shepard Fairey real hard as well. I feel like he was the actual cool one. The real Banksy. And then Banksy was the sort of like, Banksy was the big brother that like joins the band later on or whatever. That’s funny. Yeah.

That was sweet. I remember seeing like, there was an alleged Banksy like in London, like near Barbican train station there. And they like put it, were you with me for that? And they like put glass over it. Oh wow. Which was pretty hectic. Yeah. Holy shit. They were like fucking preserve this like bulletproof glass. Yeah. Which is just such a funny like inversion.

Yeah. And there was one where it was like, he like did a mural on a building and then someone just like immediately just jacked it up. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. The guy climbed up with like a power tool. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Took it home with him in like broad daylight. That was another one. That was another one. Yeah. Wow. Holy shit. That one got like nicked or whatever, which is like, that’s kind of a cool gray area.

I do kind of love that aspect. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That’s true. That should be. That’s fine. It becomes so valuable that you steal the bricks. Yeah. That’s pretty cool. Yeah. I think that’s pretty funny. Okay. I do like, I do sort of love that idea of like the tentacles of the museum, like coming out and putting glass over the random fucking street corners when a bank pops up.

Yeah. Do you know, we didn’t really like introduce you, Jake. Like, do you want to just give the four listeners that don’t know who you are, like just a brief rundown of like what you do? I’m Jake. I am a artist. I’m a writer.

I am recently a video artist. And I guess I work a lot in thinking about like new technology and old technology and ecology and all of that fun sort of stuff. Yeah. And X, it’s a NAS, right?

Alumnus. Yeah. No, I’m still trapped there. Still in the trapped in the hood. They’ve trapped me in the studio. Are we ever going to make it out of the hood? I’m never going to make it out of the hood, Matt. That’s awesome. Yeah. They’re going to employ me in the hood. Yeah. True. And I’ll probably be lecturing me until I’m 80. True. You’re going to turn into a slum board. Fuck it. Yeah. Fuck it. Whatever. Sounds like a pretty, pretty good, pretty good innings.

Yeah. Do you have anything you can say that like about NAS stuff, like on the air? On the air? Don’t get yourself sued. I won’t get myself cancelled, but there’s big waves coming. Obviously, we’ve got NAS for Palestine happening at the moment. It’s a great group of people organizing like pretty consistently to show solidarity with

Palestine. And we’ve had some, you guys have heard, I’ve heard that we’ve had some pushback from administration. Yes. Yeah. We interviewed one of the organizers of NAS students for Palestine about, yeah, like just some, some fuck ass shit that’s going on. Yeah. Yeah.

Real, just like not even, not even like evil shit. I mean, it’s pretty evil, but it’s just lame. Yeah. It’s just like they shut down a fucking, like there was like a literal bake sale and they rocked up and they were like, yeah, we’re going to, you can’t do this here. We’re going to shut this shit down.

And they were like, we’re going to, I remember them. I remember in the group chat, they were like, yeah, what happened to the food? And they were like, yeah, this guy just came up and said he was going to recycle it, but he just put it in the bin. So just, just lame ass, like trying to stay neutral shit, which is a status quo for the

art world. Yeah. Yeah. Really? Totally. Totally. Yeah. Amazing that like these like big institutions that like, that also like say, or like they sort of talk the talk. Yeah. Yeah. They do not walk the fucking walk. No, they don’t. Yeah. I know. Yeah. It was like that thing at MCA. I saw everyone posting about, um, who was playing.

Oh, Dispossessed. Yeah. Dispossessed. Yeah. So it was Art Night thing. Yes. That’s right. Yeah. That was fucking amazing. Yeah. So what happened? So, so basically I, I went there with, uh, my friend Annabelle and we were up on the balcony at the MCA surrounded by like, just, it was the most yuppie crowd ever.

Nice. Like I, I’m like, I’m from, I live in the Eastern suburbs, so I’m like edging on the, the yuppiness, but there, there was all the cool kids from like the beat disc days out West there as well. So it was awesome. Like gathering of people. But so, so anyway, Dispossessed came up on stage. They played a couple, a couple of songs and then just like a little interlude came on.

They started playing one of their slower songs and then, uh, like four or five people came out holding banners in solidarity with Palestine and immediately, just immediately, as soon as it was visible, like everybody in the audience was like, fuck yeah. Yeah. But then we saw, I, I think she might be like the general manager of the MCA or something.

She just fucking bolted from the crowd, like ran past the front of the stage, was like trying to call security over like security, security guy rocked up. They like got their mics turned off and then after some, like they practically, I don’t know, they practically just ignored security and whatever and said, let us play.

Yeah. And so they got the mics back on and they, and then they fucking played like three more songs. Wow. Cool. But it was, yeah, it was pretty awesome. They like, they, I think specifically they were calling out the MCA for taking pack of money. Who’s real fucking cozy with Israel as well as like Netanyahu. Literally.

Yeah. So yeah, it was, it was a pretty cool display to have like that sort of protest, like on the rooftop of this fucking billion dollar institutions, billion dollar building. Yeah. I love it. Right in the heart of it all. Yeah. I’m going to definitely play some dispossessed. I’ll do some of that as well. Yeah, baby.

Yeah. Fucking cool, dude. We’re going to go and ad break real quick.

We’re just like putting these in. Do you guys have any sponsors? Nope. Nope. This is dollar shit. Well, I was just like, yeah. This episode is brought to you by a red pill. What’s it called? Blue Chews. Blue Chews. Yeah. I was going to do one where you just sponsor yourself until someone gets to sponsor.

So it’s like, this episode is sponsored by Hung Up. You know, the, the, like the world’s leading expert in tomatillo. Tomatillos. I didn’t want to like blow it up before, but these actually are not green tomatoes. Yeah. Okay. Wait, are we back? We’re back now. Are we back? Are we back? I don’t want to talk about the tomatillos if we’re back. Oh, okay.

You want me to talk about the tomatillos? Oh, let’s talk about the tomatillos. Well, I don’t actually know what they are, but they’re a whole different thing. Like they don’t even have anything to do with tomatoes. Cool. It’s like, um. It’s like a whole different fruit. Yeah. Do you guys know what crab theory is? Yes. I do. Yeah, I do. Actually, I do. Yeah. So it’s like this theory where it’s like they did genealogy on all these fucking crabs

and they were like, oh yeah, sure. They all come from the same place. Right. No, these crabs just be, things just kept evolving into crabs from all these disparate like life forms. Yeah. Just because it’s like, it’s the best form. Yeah. And maybe the same could be said about tomatoes. Yes.

That’s true. Yeah. And tomatillos. It’s the yummiest form. The yummiest form. Yeah. That’s beautiful. Everyone just keeps turning into tomatoes. That’d be pretty cool. Yeah. There’s a lot of, like most, like not most, but many vegetables and foods resemble tomatoes. They want tomatoes. It’s true. Apples. Kind of look like tomatoes.

That’s just like a hard tomato. Plums. Plums. Plums really closely resemble tomatoes. Avocados. Avocados, in a way, a distant cousin of the tomato. This is way, dude, this is way better than the, um, actually bananas are a herb. Like this is very cool. You’re like, it’s all, they’re all tomatoes. They’re all tomatoes.

Yeah. Have you had the little snacking tomatoes? Yeah. From like Harris Farm. Oh, yeah. They’re really sweet. Yeah. They’re fucking good. It’s funny. The like Harris Farm, Leichhardt, like, I don’t know, like pathway of tomatoes, like first tomatoes you see are like the cheapest tomatoes. And you’re like, oh, these look pretty good. And then you get them and then you go like a few meters deeper and there’s like, oh, but

these are like organic. And then there’s like a whole table and it’s like, whoa, these ones are going to be the sweetest and the best. But then they’re like 10 bucks. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then they’re like holding the like different tiers of tomatoes. Yeah. Fuck. I love that on the shelves as well. You can see that mental process happening where people are like putting the tomato from

the previous shelf on the next shelf and slowly upgrading. Yeah. Yeah. True. Yeah. That’s awesome. I can’t buy a $10 tomato though.

You get your wallet out. This better be an awesome sandwich. I mean, if I had the money, I would, I would spend the $10. Oh yeah. Damn tomato. For sure. Oh fuck. Yeah. Yeah. What are we fucking talking about? We’re talking about like Homer’s tomaco. Oh yeah. Tomaco. He’s in that episode of The Simpsons, Jake. I haven’t actually. Homer like genetically engineers a tomato.

He breathes it with tobacco. Holy shit. So it’s like a tomaco. Yeah. Everyone gets really hooked on eating the tomatoes and raw out of the ground. Hey, fuck your healthy cigarettes. Yeah. Yeah. True. This is it. That’s halfway there. Yeah. To eat and smoke at the same time is the most decadent thing you could do.

Yeah. I love doing that. It’s so fucking cool. Yeah. It is pretty cool. I was studying. I would do that. It’s pretty nasty. I’m like taking smokes in between. Fucking hell. This is the sponsored by Winfield. Philip Morris. Yeah. The Philip Morris. Double happiness. Smoke is bad guys. It’s fucking lame. Stop. Stop smoking. Yeah. Quit smoking. Yeah. Terrible.

We quit. And look how happy we are now. Yeah. Doing great. We just can’t stop talking about smoking. We just can’t stop talking about how good. We’re like the worst kind of junkies who are like, I used to do heroin by the way. I actually used to do heroin by the way. Yeah. We met when I was back when I was heroin. Yeah. It’s like fucking hell. We get it. But now I’m sober.

So, and it feels great. I’ve got my 12 step program. I go to NA. Yeah. That’s nicotine anonymous. That’s what we go to. That’s what we’re setting up. We kind of want to start. Narcotics anonymous is nicotina. That’s the new podcast. I need that. Should we freaking talk about art some more? Yeah. What I was, I want to know, like, like just living, like the sort of like feeling you

have living as an artist. Like, I don’t know. Like, are you like, just tell me about it. Tell me about your life as an artist, Jake. Like, like right now. Right now. Is this, is this a great time to be an artist or what? Um, I think, yeah, it’s, it’s a good time.

It’s a good time to be an artist. I think in Sydney, especially there’s like post COVID sort of glow up happening in the scene at the moment. And we’ve got like, I don’t know, all the, all the people that we sort of know, uh, I think like an especially talented crop. Like, I feel like a lot of these people are really, I think compared to the years that were

preceding me, I think a lot of these people are very committed, very like into the sort of like community building part of being an artist. Like there’s a lot of, a lot of new spaces popping up, a lot of new studios and stuff. So that’s really nice. Do you want to shout some of those out? Oh yeah, totally. Uh, obviously there, there’s, um, there’s tiles who I love.

Yeah. There’s the, the new team over at Schmick. Yeah. There’s a lot going on at Paint Studio all the time. They’ve been around for a while now. They’re pretty cool. Yeah. Uh, obviously a lot going on at Prop all the time. Uh, who else? Kitchen Studio. Shouts to Kitchen. Yes. Friends of the Pod Kitchen. What’s up guys? Uh, I’m sorry. Fuck.

Who else? I know. Uh, shouts to, to specifically Adele who’s, who’s got a show over on at Minerva at the moment. Great show. Go check it. Cool. Yeah. That actually will be on when your episode drops. Hell yeah. Go check that out guys. That’s Adele Warner at Minerva Gallery Inn. Where is that? It’s in the cross.

Yeah. The beautiful cross. Yeah. The glorious King’s cross. This little corner of the cross where you turn at the fountain and suddenly it becomes New York. Yes. I know the one. That’s crazy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That’s like McLea Street. Yeah. And you, and you to get into this space, you walk up like these shitty, like carpeted

stairs. Cool. Cool. to like what you think would be an apartment block, but it’s like just a beautiful like white room. Yeah, cool. And it feels like New York loft party sort of. Yeah, sick. It’s awesome. Yeah, I want more like arty parties going on. Yeah. You know what I mean? I feel like I’m not getting my appetite.

What are you talking about, bro? We got the art bar. We got Michael Reed art bar. We got Michael Reed art bar. What more do you want? We’ve got an art bar as well. We’ve got the night. Oh, cool. We still haven’t gone to any of these though, is what I’m saying. We haven’t gone to the Michael Reed art bar. They’re not for artists.

I don’t think any artist has ever stepped foot in any of those establishments. Yeah, I had someone say to me recently that NAS, like it feels like it’s moving to more of an event space kind of model. Like seriously, like as a business model more than an art school. I still remember getting a slap on the wrist from our like student manager guy for walking

into the Gucci event and trying to order a drink and then steal a lemon from their display. That’s awesome. Yeah. Cool. And it’s like, it was like in our fucking school, like in the way to get to my studio. That’s hilarious. Yeah. Like, yeah, Sydney loves its event spaces. There’s a lot of money getting moved around.

Yeah. And there’s always private events, like invite only or like pretty like broad, but like it’s a list, you know, you’d be on the list. Yeah. If you know, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If you know, you know. Exactly. Yeah. Maybe something worth looking into is the like influencer. Cause like, that’s one thing that’s really like blossomed since COVID is the like in person

influencer events. Like none of us. Yeah. The influencer, the influencer renaissance. Yeah. None of us really go to these things. So we’re not really, we’re not really able to talk about it too much, but I know that there’s a lot of influencer, like it’s like, you know, an event where you’re, you get, I mean, you guys know what it is, but it’s like, you get a whole bunch of influencers in a room.

You take pictures with them in front of your product, the brand new tomatillo. That’s. Don’t get distracted by the time.

You’re handling. That’s dinner, dude. Show it some respect.

Yeah. That should make some money. Yeah. That does fucking make some money. Yeah.

But yeah, like, are you, like, are you able to like, like live comfortably as an artist? Like, do you have any, do you have any advice for people like trying to do this shit? Get a day job. Yeah. 100%. I don’t know. I think coming off the back of being a photographer my whole life, props to you.

I couldn’t hack doing the assisting thing. Like it really made me disillusioned. Yeah. It’s tough. And I think, I think maybe a comfortable distance from your passion is sometimes a good thing. Like I really enjoy just having a normal fucking day job and like talking to normal ass people and then like going off and doing the art thing in my own time.

Yeah. Like it’s nice. It’s also nice to get like, have a solid stream of income and get a little bit of ka-ching like on the side. Totally. Yeah. It’s always a nice surprise to sort of work. Yeah. You like, cause I just like kind of shut down a business that I was running for the last year and like, if I could have looked back on it, one of the things I wish I did was just

like keep a couple of days in hospital instead of being like, like I was really sick of working and as soon as I could take a wage, I was like, give me a fucking wage. Yeah. But it puts so much pressure on it. Do you know what I mean? I’m like making, paying my rent with this fucking business. Whereas now I’m like, damn, I can get like 500 bucks from two days at a coffee shop.

Yeah. I would have been pretty chill. And then like the whole business would have just not had so much stress. Like I wouldn’t also be trying to put my fucking, you know, rent on it as well. Yeah. Like, you know, and then like, you know. Just like even that little bit of leeway to do like fun stuff with your business or like,

you know, enjoy yourself with stuff instead of having to finance every action you make. But it’s fucking cycles though, right? Cause when I started that, I was like, I can’t even do the day job. I was so sick of having a boss. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. I get you. Times and I’m sure like I’m doing fucking barista work right now. And I’m like in the honeymoon period with it.

Yeah. I’m like, oh, I just make coffee. And like, all I do is smile at kids and make coffee. But I know in like three months or six months, I’m going to be like, fuck you. Don’t you ever speak to me like that. I fucking run businesses and I have a podcast. I’m like, fuck off. Like, do you know what I mean? Do you know who I am? Do you fucking know who I am?

Do you have any idea who I am? Yeah. Yeah. I think that’s, that is good advice. I’m on a very influential art podcast. Yeah, exactly. I was like, to Anthony, I was like, yeah, I got this podcast. He’s like, huh? What? What podcast?

That’s the gallery director of Zero. Yeah. And then, and then you also said like, um, like Gemma and like, like Kate walked in and and he was like, are those guys also with the podcast? Which I love. He’s like, this podcast is a fucking crew. And then we may as well just extrapolate that out. I was like, I was like, he was going around town for the rest of his life.

Are you guys with the podcast? Are you with the podcast? He just thinks everyone wants to be on the podcast. It’s like, it’s like it’s hung up. It’s like, uh, hung up as Amazon. Yeah. We employ like 50,000 people. Yeah. Can we, I want to go back to that, to the video as well. Can you remind me of the title, Jake, of the work? It’s called a week and panicked animal.

A week and panicked animal. So it was really sweet. I was like another, I’m sorry to be working out all my video grievances on you. Well, there’s a lot of, there’s a lot to unpack. Yeah. I fucking hate that the loop, like, like you can’t watch. So I was like, Hey Anthony, bro, please, can you just like start it for me so I can watch

it from the actual start. And it was so good. Like we all sat, like we all came to watch the video. Like it was a movie. We all sat on the fucking school, the bus seat. That’s like a stop seat, the bus stop seat or the schoolyard seat and watch the video. And it was just, I think just having that context of like having a couple of homies with you and

like coming explicitly to see it and watching it from the start. Yeah. Even those very most basic like elements, like that’s just like going to see a movie. You’re like, you got a couple of friends with you, you know? Yeah. I think that really added to the feeling of being able to give like a video work or the video work, like it’s due. Yeah. Like in the way that you can walk up to a painting and you can sort of give as much of your like

capacity as you can sort of bear to, to like work it out and play with it and walk back. But I think because of some of those like shitty logistical things, sometimes the video is resisting you even from the beginning, you know? So it was really like, I think it’s important to like, if you’re, if you can set yourself up to like engage with it in that way.

Um, and then I guess I just was interested to like, I guess it’s all like found footage. Yeah. Yeah. All of it’s, all of it’s found footage. All of it I found like online from like YouTube, Facebook. Yeah. What about the, uh, opening shot? What is that? So, so the opening shot is actually like a big part of my practice is sort of just roaming

around on Google earth, like in the street view and stuff. I’ve made a lot of work in that and I sort of, I was, I was thinking a lot about, I guess just this, this image of like middle America and obviously like I tried my darndest and I

was, I was looking, I was looking for shots that would sort of just, just mirror that aesthetic and feel of how I thought of, of middle America. And I, I guess because, because I spent so much time on Google earth and because that’s my only sort of relation, I, and I ended up using a screenshot from Google earth.

Got it. Cool. And, and as, as you sort of zoom into the static landscape, if you look closely, you can see the Google watermark like appear in the trees. Yeah. Cool. Interesting. So we’ve got a little private like media viewing copy that we might go and look through closely again. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

That’s cool. Yeah. And like, and like found footage thing. I mean, one thing like, um, like, I mean, one, one thing that of many that I really liked about it was like, you’re, you’re just using like the, um, already very like established and like worked out language of cinema, you know, like the edit of it, it’s like edited

like a sort of horror movie. Yeah. Um, which I loved. And it’s like, you know, that’s one thing that like Sam Hodge was like, he’s, he saw it and he was like, I was relieved to see this. And we were trying to unpack what he meant by that. But I was saying like, you know, it’s because, you know, like you, you’ve seen a lot of shitty video artworks, like no offense guys, but a lot of these artworks are quite boring to

watch. And like that, that simple thing of like putting a bit of entertainment and like psychological like tricks into it. Um, it’s like, it’s just that stuff’s so fair game. And like, yes. Yeah. It was just really fun. Like to bring that into it at no like, you know, cost to the, like, you know, the, um,

sincerity of the work or like the, the, the depth of it. The opposite, I would say. No, exactly. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. We’re not even talking about cost. We’re talking about like using. Oh yeah. It adds a layer. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Yeah. And they’re well worn. Yeah. But even like there’s this buildup and the first sort of few clips are like, damn, like we’re looking at a school shooting.

We’re looking at a home invasion. And that’s like the first sort of like the biggest like turn or like twist and a sort of relief of tension. And like, oh, we can like, maybe this is going to be a little bit funny or like we can like laugh. Yeah. Especially to, I come back to saying like, I’m really, um, always hammer home. Like the reason I’m telling you, like, I went to see this video, like with my friends and

not by myself is because I think the like social relationship and like the, you know, critics have called it like embodied criticism or like the way that I’m going to see this work is super influenced by like my day and who I’m seeing it with. And I don’t want to like ignore that. But I think like Matt, you saw it by yourself. And then when we were watching it at home, you were like laughing more.

I was, I wasn’t laughing at all. Cause I was like trying to be quiet in the gallery. No. Yeah. And then here I was like really getting into it and like enjoying it more because you know, of all these other things. Like, cause there’s like you’re in a private there. Yeah. I was also like, I was like it was, the TV was a bit quiet when I was in there. So I was like, I was like trying to listen up, but I was like, I was

chuckling. I was getting, you know, I know your sense of humor and I was like, I was getting it, but I was like much more like, I was like focus, you know, it was a funny, it was a funny thing. Like I walked in and then like watched it a couple of times and then like, and people were chatting. It was like, I think it was like demo or like some of the direct, like one of the directors and some like friends came in and they were all chatting and

like, they forgot that I walked in or they didn’t see me walk in. And then I got up and I like have my keys clipped to my belt, like a fricking skater boy and I like stand up and my key like slaps the bench and they all go dead quiet. I’m like, you know, like who is it? It’s a D the D has come to life. And I like go on the corner.

I’m like, Hey, and they’re like, you’re scared that shit out of me, mate. Write your email on the list. We’ll send you an email. But yeah, it was funny. Like cool, like way to see it. You know, I just like pulled up on a weekend day and just like, you know, sort of my own, like, which is nice. Yeah. I mean, there’s so many ways. I’m not trying to say like one ways, but yeah, I guess I’m also interested in

like the American-ness of it. Yeah. Cause it’s got this like very striking Aussie kind of feel, right? Like it’s got the scaffolding and it’s got the seat that we all recognize. And we’re like, Oh, cool. Like Australian signifies. Yeah. Yeah. But it’s like, we’re talking about sidewalks and American accents. Like, I guess we, when we saw it, we all had our little thoughts and takes

about that. But yeah. Yeah. What are you thinking about that? Um, so it was definitely less so about, I guess, less so about these, these, um, individual incidences and more so about the idea of nature as a whole. And I think coming, coming at it from a very like online information age sort of angle that

our idea of America and I mean, sorry, our idea of nature is like super, super influenced by these images that we are broadcasted from America, like in film and television. Yeah. And so, especially with like Bambi and all that, there’s this, there’s this image of the deer, especially as this sort of, this pure symbol of nature, this sort of meek and

timid creature that we, you know, sort of can admire and can, you know, go out into the woods and see and come home and, you know, wash our hands of it. But, um, yeah. So coming back to America, I was, I was thinking about, yeah, like the, the media landscape and

how that sort of, how that sort of like formulated the global idea of what nature should be and what nature is. And like, look, looking at a lot of like, looking at a lot of developments in Western Australia, where I’m from, a lot of them like sort of like these, these housing developments look

like they’re building like an American suburb in the middle of like dry ass Western Australia. Like there’s these fucking manicured lawns that do not suit the environment whatsoever. These fucking houses that look like the, like straight out of a Hallmark movie. Like it’s, it’s ridiculous to the degree that American media has influenced like how we think

about both our like civilizations, our like, um, what would you call it? Like urban, urban planning and urban design. And then also our idea of what nature is. Yeah. And insane because like, you know, in the fifties, like just post-war, it was like, okay, like, yeah, blue jeans and rock and roll and like Coca-Cola and like, yeah, okay.

You know, economic models and like, uh, a new form of colonialism. But like, you know, this, this thing of like this deep culture stuff, like where like, you know, your house is going to look a certain way and your car is going to be huge. And like, neither of those things are going to have any, um, they’re like, they’re, they’re not suited to the world that we live in.

They’re just like this, like, um, uh, what’s the word? Like a sort of prominent excess, like just for the sake of it, you know, like for no other reason than like a sort of status thing. Yeah. That’s funny because it’s like, I hate being like a sort of like a hand wringing, like kind

of like the mainstream, but like, that’s a, like a really scary part of like mainstream culture. They’re like big car thing. They’re like big house thing. Yeah. Yeah. Just Uber standardization of everything. Yeah. And I guess because America exists in such, uh, an excess of production that they can afford

to sort of, you know, create these, these standards of excess. Yeah, totally. Um, I also want to talk about the, uh, other like work you have in this show, the nameless black of a name. Um, and there’s like, so it’s basically like a, um, uh, what do they call it here?

It’s like a laser etched wood oriented strand board. Yeah. Um, do you want to just like, just wrap on that for a little bit? Yeah. So, so like that, and I guess I might, I might give a little bit of background to like the install of the work as a whole, like that, that’s a small, that, that work is a small,

a piece of ply sort of plywood looking thing meant to, meant to emulate like, you know, those, the sort of images that you saw after like hurricane Katrina or like even in the video, there’s a lot of images of them plying over broken, broken, shattered glass pans. Yeah. And also like a lot, still a lot of new constructed homes in America are made of wood and stuff

like that. Yeah, totally. And so that, that was, that was sort of, yeah, it was, it was meant to be like a little nod to the aftermath and also the, the aftermath of the work as well, because etched on it is a monologue that, um, was partly lifted from House of Leaves.

Cool. Which is one of my, one of my favorite little horror novels. Yeah. And it didn’t make it into the video work. Yeah. So I want to, I wanted to have it there in some way. Nice. And so it ended up becoming part of this sort of installation, which it was, I guess in a way I think about like installation in the same way that I think maybe if somebody that

works in theater would think about set dressing. Cool. Yeah. Like you’re, you’re sort of creating that, that, you know, that space, that scene for the, for the work to perform in. Yeah. And so that, that became a sort of, it’s, it’s in the space, it’s attached to this sort of rectangular, um, massive, like taller than a human being sort of floating fake wall that

encloses the space. Oh, that wasn’t part of that. Yeah. Yeah. That, that, that came to represent sort of like the, the damaged, the damaged house, the damaged property. Gotcha. Yeah. And then the, the rest of the area was in my mind, that sort of exclusion zone that’s referenced at the start of the video that, that undeveloped land that’s been cleared.

Yeah. Cool. Really nice, like neat, um, like, uh, sort of strong, but like light gestures, you know, like to just like, I mean, this is the kind of stuff that like, yeah, you sort of expect from a more sophisticated artist such as yourself as like, you know, you’re able to get like a lot of, just like boom.

That’s why we have our people on the podcast. We get you like the big compliment. Yeah. That’s true. You don’t get paid, but you get that big compliment. Yeah. I’ll take it. No, you’re really going to. You guys are great at it. Yeah. Thank you. Is that like, you know, that, that gesture of like, just, just a piece of like, um, fiber, what do they call it?

Like particle board, you know, prepared in such a way that like can represent more. And that’s like one of the like really fun things about this whole art pursuit is like just, um, the use of signs and like representing like very broad things and like being able to ring a lot of bells with like just a few words or just a small like very simple gestures

can vary a lot within them. Yeah. Yeah. Especially like, I really like a big influence of mine is that sort of relational aesthetics field where a lot, a lot of it is found objects and stuff. And look at looking at how, like when you put them in a space, like how these objects relate

to one another audience. And I find that shit like so fascinating because like, I don’t know, there’s, there’s like so much shit in this very fucking room. Like that little, that little fucking post-it note over there with like heaps of shit scribbled on it. You remove it from this room, you put it in a space in conversation with another object

and it, it can like carry so much without being really anything at all. Yes, totally. Totally. Yeah. Super exciting. Like, um, and like, yeah, it just makes me want to exhibit to be honest. Like just, I’m sorry. My mic cable is fucking up. Um, yeah. Inspiring stuff. I love this concept of like an installation is like a set.

Yeah. That really opens up a lot for me, which is, which is super cool. Cause I did a little, like I studied a bit of theater stuff and I really like, we would go super deep into like, yeah, very subtle things about the staging or the set or what do they call them? There’s like some type of like stage directions that make their way into a text and we do a

really close reading. Yeah, the blocking and stuff. Yeah. And I was like, you know, and then I realized, like I’ve always been saying like when I walk into an installation and I get that feeling of like, whoa, I’m in like a whole new world. Like I step off the street, especially love if there’s like, you know, some carpeted stairs to walk up to, like a little space between this, the world and the gallery and then I’m in the gallery.

And when I feel like it’s a really successful work for me, like installation wise, it gives me that feeling of like, whoa, this is some, like I’m, I’m somewhere else. And that’s like one of the, you know, so many people are drawn to installation and sometimes it feels like un-earned or like not the right thing. It’s like a default, but the good ones almost hit me immediately with that sense of like,

you know, yeah, I’m somewhere else. And I never quite could like wrap it up, you know, in that way. But thinking of it as a set is really interesting and there’s a whole language there. And I love that there’s a sort of interrelatedness to your work that I didn’t even like, hopefully I at least felt it if I didn’t, you know, wasn’t like verbally aware of it enough to

like bring it up. But yeah, I think that’s really fucking a useful framework. And also like, you know, I love the, I love, like you, you’re not, you haven’t explicitly used the phrase science fiction, but like, I love someone that’s interested in that sort of realm of like, it’s like a sort of speculation, you know, that like a lot of, a lot of like

cultures like doesn’t let itself speculate that broadly. You know what I mean? Yeah. And you’re not saying like, these are like futuristic aliens or whatever, but like, you know, like there is definitely the tone. The deer can think. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. The deer is actually an alien, like whatever, like, oh fuck, I got to tell you about this

movie also. Wait, I’m just going to write it down so I can bring it back up. Put down the movie. Um, but like, you know, just like, like in your work, I sort of sense that you have this like, uh, you know, like a capacity or like an interest in, in making those kind of like, you could even say like grand speculations about the future and stuff like that.

Yeah, definitely. Like I am like super, super interested in like the work of like Marshall McLuhan, who’s like super sort of prescient in predicting like a lot of technological changes. Obviously like William Gibson, who’s like massive sci-fi head, like pretty much invented

cyberpunk and then bit, a bit of a controversial one, but I am a fucking huge fan of Nick Land. Oh yeah. Who’s that again? Like he’s like guy. He’s like a crazy, like he’s very closely associated with accelerationism. That’s right. Yeah. But he, a lot of his earlier work, he was chilling with like, um, the fuck who’s the capitalist

realism motherfucker again? Fucking Mark Fisher. Mark Fisher. He was chilling with Mark Fisher and Sadie Plant and writing not racist shit. And it was really fucking good. Just like speculating on the, like, I think there’s like a, there’s like, it’s that sort of science fiction where you, you take something to a reasonable extreme and see what happens.

And I think that definitely was like present in this video work for me was, was taking this idea of, of, of nature’s revenge to a reasonable, believable excess. Yes. And also like, um, uh, the show text by Harry DeVries, like beautiful, like kind of like,

um, sort of short story or something. It’s like a vignette, like, but future. It was, it was, it was almost like, um, it was almost like he, in the, in the text, it’s, it’s less of an exhibition text and more of like, he, he mythologizes both me and the work.

Yes. In this sort of science fiction style narrative where, where I have become an agent for the voices present in the work. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That’s it. Yeah. Cool. It’s, it was really like incredibly, incredibly chuffed that we got Harry DeVries to, to write

the text and he, he fucking killed it, man. I’m super, super proud of, of that text. Yeah. Awesome. Yeah. Yeah. I saw this, um, have you seen this show at prop that trip show? Oh, I haven’t. Yeah. I saw it. Oh, big Latham’s in it. Yeah. I love it. I don’t know if this is like, I would try and dissolve it again.

This show prop had like the sort of, you know, a text of its own on the back, you know, like it’s its own. It’s like an accompanying. Yeah. It’s not like a user guide. That was, that was the thing me and exactly when me and Harry were, um, well, Harry did all of the work pretty much.

But when we were talking about Harry writing the text for the work, we, we kept saying, we kept coming back to this, like, we want it to be a narrative to accompany the work rather than a guide on how to, how to think about it, how to think about it or something that just hands you, hands you the dictionary of what, what is going on.

Yeah. Like we wanted it to be something more. Yeah. But it’s, and it still gives you another entry point. Like I know like people are drawn to words. Like you’ll often see, like, you know, I think if you’re maybe struggling with the show, like I see a few paintings, I’m like, Oh, these are a bit challenging. Like maybe I can read some, something about it. Give me the room sheet. But it’s so exciting to get like a story or an accompanying work that’s sort of in the

space of the visual stuff to kind of maybe nudge me a lot. And I think, you know, a lot of the time it works, it works better to give your audience an effectual nudge rather than a didactic nudge towards something. Like if you can convey like a feeling, if you can, if you can do like a vibes based sort

of accompaniment, a lot of the time they’ll come to what you are trying to tell them with their own vocabulary and in their own way. This feels like one of the, like genuinely one of the big, like actual innovations and areas of like, like naissance or renaissance in the last 10 or 20 years that we’ve seen

in like contemporary art, like of all the shows that we’ve, like you and I, me and Aiden have been going to art shows like since we met basically. So we’ve had a good, like almost 10 year run at it. And like, I mean, listen, serious heads, correct, please write in to the tip line or whatever if you think we’re wrong here. But it feels like people experiment so much more now with this stuff.

And it’s such an exciting like format to play with the, like the single piece of A4 paper, you know? Yeah, because it’s such a relief to have. Yeah, maybe it’s a relief to have that. And also on top of that, they know they can’t be quite garish with this too. Like, so like, yeah, it’s an exciting like thing. And yeah, you’ve seen like so much more play with that stuff now.

Like, and like, yeah, I mean, I don’t want to shit on the scene because it’s actually a really colorful, like beautiful art scene that’s going on. Like it’s not to take away with what’s actually on the walls, but yeah, I just feel like now more than ever, people are playing with the like room sheet stuff because it was such an easy like target. It’s like, you get the room sheet, it’s got the list and the price.

It tells me what to think about the word, how to explain it to my mom. Does this one even have the price on it? Back to work in the art mines. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I like that. Yeah. That’s my, that’s my hot take on room sheets. We’ve got, once again, we’ve got, oh shit. I’ve got to, I’ve got to, okay. I’m going to do something real quick. No, it’s all good. You guys keep going. Yeah. Okay. I want to ask you about audience.

Yeah. Like how much is the audience in your mind? Like massively. Like, like I, I mean, I mean, coming, coming back to what you were saying before about the, the looping of video works. Like I completely fucking agree with you. I really don’t like coming into a video work halfway through and then having to wait for

it to restart again. But that I, unfortunately that is just like one of the technical limitations, but we’re in thinking like, I, I thought about this work as like a film with a start and an end and this sort of structure of intensifying anxiety throughout.

So the whole, pretty much the whole structure is like predicated on making you nervous, making you sweat. Like I wanted you to be, I wanted my audience to be squirming in their seats that like the, I think maybe, maybe the most effective part of the video, just from what I’ve noticed,

from what I’ve seen during crits, during screenings, is that, is that start bit where there, there is that threat of violence that is implicit to the police footage and then relieving that with, with that sort of, it’s a deer, it’s a deer bit. Like there’s, there’s this sort of intensifying anxiety and then release.

Like it’s, I, it’s sort of like, I remember talking to somebody about it and like comparing it to comedy. Like you’ve got the, you’ve got the setup, you’ve got that really long fucking lead up and you’re like, this guy’s fucking rambling. And then he says something and it just makes it like, there’s that huge fucking relief of like laughter. And then you’re onto the next bit.

Yeah. But, and, and then like throughout a, throughout like a comedy show, like there’s that intensifying, like hilarious, like hilarity where there’s callbacks and there’s, there’s this sort of like this theme that’s coming together throughout the course of a work. I was like really interested in, in sort of having that slow release of the theme and not

giving it to you upfront within the first few minutes. Like I wanted it to have that sort of conceal reveal dynamic going on with the audience where it takes a while to realize what’s happening. Yeah. And then even after, because it’s quite fast paced and intense, it might take a few viewings

to really unpack it. I think so. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I love now, like hearing you speak, I’m like, damn, like you got so much control when you’re making a video over what your audience sees. Like I was listening to a chef talk about food and they were like a pretty serious chef and they ended up opening a sandwich shop and they were like, I opened a sandwich shop

because I want control over every bite. You know what I mean? That’s awesome. Whereas if I just give you a plate of food, you can like control it. Yeah. You’re like, I’m just going to have potatoes. But he’s like, no, fuck you. Every bite has everything. Wow. Sandwiches of the cinema. Yeah. Yeah.

But yeah. Yeah. I really liked that. I really, obviously we’re like big into the consideration of the audience. And I love to think that like in any sort of anything like that, like even fucking like the coffee shop, like if someone doesn’t know where to stand, it’s your fault. Like if someone like, you know, not to be crazy, but like if the video is boring and

the audience doesn’t get it, like it’s mostly probably your fault at a certain point. Like, you know, you can only go so far. The buck’s got to stop somewhere. And like, yeah, David Foster Wallace. You need to, you need to find, like, I think the, like the problem that a lot of video artists face is you, you do need to, like, no matter how ambitious the work is, you do need to find

like a common language that almost anyone can understand. Yeah. And then try and relate your heady themes through that language to the best of your ability. And yeah. Otherwise it’s your fault if they don’t fucking get it. That’s why people hate video art. Someone who was it, Matt, who was saying like, people feel like the paintings are bullying

them. Like, I feel that way. I feel that way. We have all, yeah, we’ve all been kind of trained into submission by the like scary modern paintings. But then we fucking find our way and read our essays and go to our shows and now we can like hold our own, but it shouldn’t even ideally feel like that.

Same with poetry. Like I love poetry. Likewise. It beats out if everyone fucking hates it. Yeah. You know what I mean? It’s like a, it’s, but it’s more of a question. It’s not like I’m giving the painters, I don’t want to sound like I’m giving the painters a hard time there. It’s more of a question of like, how are we going to like introduce people to this like beautiful whole realm of expression and experience?

Yeah. Yeah. Really important to us on the podcast. But like, you know, like we frequently bump into people who are like, like, I just don’t give a fuck about it. Like, it was so funny. We were walking like through King Street earlier and we had to go and buy some fucking tortillas for dinner tonight. And we wound up at Fiji Mart, Fiji Market, whatever.

Shout outs. Awesome shop. And I had this like, I like had like my Spanish, like Mexican food, like on the counter to check out. And she’s like, we have some fresh tomatillos from the farm. Like go and get, go and get some if you’re making Mexican food tonight. I was like, yeah, sure. So I left all these like dark room prints on the table.

They’re just like wrapped up in a piece of paper with my name on it. And then like, while I’m over there, like a guy goes to like put his shopping basket on them. I’m like, oh, let me just get those out the way. And she like notices. And then I like get to the front of the line. She’s like, what have you got in there? I’m like, well, like, like I’m a photographer.

And she’s like, what are you taking photos of? I’m like, I don’t know. They’re abstracts, I guess. And so I show her this like really, I’ll find the scene. I show her this like really challenging scene of like, look, it’s just the end of a street. And she’s like, oh, yeah, that’s awesome. I’m like, oh, thanks. Like CJ gets it because you’re an artist. But I’m like, you know, I’m like, it’s a. She said that she was like.

I was like, yeah. I was like, do you want one? She’s like, I have no. It has no function. She said it has no function. I have no use for it. I have no use for it. That’s what she said. Yeah. And I was like, because it was a test. That’s sort of beautiful. Yeah. I was like, I was like, wouldn’t take no for an answer. I had a test print of this. So I just like, I gave it to her.

I was like, no, you just take it now because you express some interest. Like you’re going to have this and deal. Just deal with the like the abstract thing. I don’t know. I was just like, let her have it. Yeah. Yeah. It was so funny to see someone who’s like, like, no, like I don’t need fucking stuff. Like get it out of my house. But we like, we were talking about it afterwards. Like she was interested enough to be like, hey, what is that?

What is that? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you know what? That’s the most, the longest exchange I’ve had with anyone from that shop ever. She was cool. She was really giving it to us. These tomatillos, she was saying is actually like third season tomatillos. Like, what was it? It was like, no, it was like the first time they tried to grow them. The guy died just before harvest.

Holy shit. The second year they tried to grow them. They got flattened just before delivery. It was because of the like flood. No, the third one was the floods. And on the third season, the farm was flooded. Biblical. Literally. You were listening really close to that story. I was like, you just said something mean about my phone. I actually was like really cheesed that I got like pleased.

I mean that I got to give her the like the photo and like that she was like that curious about like, you know, some stupid little art project. But yeah, that was a fun, fun moment. And like to go from that into like taping this, it’s like a cool, like cool story arc of a day. But now it’s canonical. It’s canonized.

Immortalized in audio form. I do think for the most part, like even a less successful work, like the artist is still trying to, I think like is always still trying to like do that work of like, yeah, making these ideas felt by, you know, the audience. It’s like, even if it’s not the best at it.

Yeah. Yeah. Like, that’s what we’re going for. Right. I mean, someone said like, otherwise it’s a diary. Like if you’re writing only makes sense to you. Yeah. I want a diary. Yeah. That’s fine. That’s fine. And that’s so fine. Can I jump in with a, with a hot take? Get a word in edgewise, Jake. Um, I, I, I really like, I think that, um, like art is like a profoundly effectual experience.

And I think that you, you do need to, you do need to find like a common effectual, emotional and didactic language with your audience. But I think a lot of the bad rap that maybe like stuff like public sculpture, stuff like video art, stuff like performance gets is because it, it makes you work for the meaning

more than representational other, other representational, more representational forms do. Like a, like a painting, you can sort of, you can, you can sit there and ingest it. And I feel like after about 10 minutes, you, you get the idea or you don’t.

Whereas a video work or a performance art, like I know from experience, like when I see it, it’s, it’s something that I take a long time to chew on. And I might take multiple viewings. It might take multiple visits to the gallery to fully get it. Like I’m sure, I’m sure the same could be said for painting. But I think, I think it comes to you through a lot more work, a lot more mental work to

sort of unpack such dynamic sort of less representational forms of art or more, or more sort of, yeah, more, more sort of dynamic, multi-sensory forms of art, I think are a lot less easy to chew on immediately and absorb.

Yeah. Yeah. And I think like, just picking up on what you said there is like a lot of people that are like suspicious of, like people do enter galleries and especially with, with challenging works with like a bit of suspicion, you know, if they’re not like into this stuff and like, you know, a lot of the time there’s like a sort of an urgency about like arriving at some

sort of sense of meaning. And like, you know, that’s what we don’t like about that old style of doing a room sheet is like, you’re going to tell me what it means like on the way in. It’s like, no, I’ll fucking decide. And then on the way out, maybe if you’re lucky, I’ll like think about what you think it means. Like if you even care. But it’s confusing because we’re like, you got to work hard to get at the meaning and you got

to be willing to do that work. But also like, don’t be an idiot and think too much about the meaning. Like, no, but I’m, I’m, I’m actually like, I’m actually just like, not that sure. I care about like the meaning as like a capital M meaning about the meaning of works in general. You know, like, I think like people get really hung up on that, on that idea about like,

what is that? What does the end of that movie mean? Like, when you type in like on Google, like when you type in like, what does the, you know, like, what does the like end of like the, the, like the common things that come up are like, what does the end of like seven mean? What does the end of Fight Club mean? And it’s like, it’s like, who cares what it means?

Like, like, you know what I mean? Like people get really hung up on that. Yeah, what do you take away from it? What do you sort of get out of it? But you’re, yeah, sorry. You’re getting something out of that. Even if you don’t have like a, a verbal, like, oh, this is what that means or whatever. Yeah. You’ve like felt something. Yeah, absolutely. It’s effectual. No, absolutely. That’s why you’re satisfied.

But if you didn’t have either of those, then you, and I’m sure we’ve all left shows or movies or with that sort of empty feeling. And maybe that gets conflated a little bit with like, am I not smart enough? Or like, what’s the meaning? If you’re not like someone who’s constantly making art and talking about art. Yes.

But you still need, like, it still needs to have meant something. Yeah. Like it still needs to work. Otherwise you’ll be kind of pissed off or like, not pissed off, but you know what I’m saying. What the, my main problem with it is that especially if we’re going to make artwork after the year, like, you know, 1895, like the idea of things having a sense and an internal logic and like,

for things to like make sense and therefore mean something like in that, in the world of like words and logic, like is irrelevant to what we’re at here. Like, and it’s, it’s cool if they do and that works and that’s fun, like, or whatever that achieves something like for the artists that maybe that’s nice. But I’m just saying like, you know, I, this is my little tirade against this stuff.

And like, you know, this is my fucking jam. I’m like, I’m like an iconoclast, like in my, down to my boots. But like, I just don’t think that things like making sense is, is a very, is a, it’s a, it’s an unhelpful way to like go at this stuff. Especially like if you’re thinking about teaching someone who’s like a kid and like wants to, you know, and you can see like maybe they’re, they’re confused by art or like they’re, they’re intrigued by it or something.

You know, like, I just think like, you know, my art teaching, a lot of it had to do with what is the sense of this? And like, what does this mean? And like, you know, I just think like, it’s such a, like a sort of final and like, like not like, it’s a sort of non-cyclical way to look at art, you know, like, like who fucking cares what the sense of it is?

Like if everything had to make sense, it would be pretty boring. It would be like, like, I just watched the new, like I watched three or four minutes of the new Band of Brothers TV show. And if you saw it, I just watched the old one. It’s pretty good. But I was like, this makes way too much sense. Like I don’t give a fuck about any of these people. It’s being spoon fed.

And it just, yeah, it was so like, you know, the opposite to everything we were talking about. And I was pissed off. I like slammed the laptop shut. I was like, I’m going for a walk. Then in the other direction, like I also feel like there, for me, this is, this has been a really hot take from at the pub in past.

But if an artwork is, is there and, and it’s stunning or like technically amazing, I can appreciate it. I can appreciate the work that goes into it. But it’s not something that I mentally carry away with me unless it makes me feel or not even feel like, like feeling whatever.

If it, I want it to make me think and, or change the way I think. I want it to have some sort of didacticism in a way. Like I want it to try and make me change how I think or feel. And that’s, that’s the sort of art that I end up taking home with me in my brain and thinking about in the long term.

And I think that’s like definitely the sort of art that I try to make now. Yeah, totally. Which is one of the more challenging things to do, like, you know. Without alienating people. Yeah, exactly. I mean, that was like the second sort of like poetic, like phrase in the video, the one with like the Siri voice.

That feels like, okay, this is the most sort of like didactic or preachy, right? It’s like the mother nature Siri voice, like telling us as humans, like, you know, not quite telling us off, but very much doing that in a way that I think is like, yeah, it’s pretty like bold to like put that all out there. Like it’s like, well, but yeah, I wonder, I question like some people were like, of my friends that saw it were like, you know, whatever, I have feelings about this or that.

But I was also trying to like think about like, is that like air quotes, like Jake’s voice? Like it’s obviously not Jake’s voice. Maybe it doesn’t matter whether it’s Jake’s voice or, you know. Yeah, that’s another thing that I’ve also been thinking about a lot recently.

I like I’ve been consuming a lot of Jordan Wolfson’s work. Who’s he’s a very controversial figure in the arts. He plays a lot with sort of like very, very subversive sort of iconography and such. But I was listening to an interview with him the other day and it really like struck me as this like this truth that when you write a piece of fiction or you make a movie to show at cinemas,

like you can portray all these like all these horrible things happening, like all of this stuff that you don’t necessarily morally agree with. Yes. But I feel like in the arts, when you write a didactic score to something or when you depict something,

a lot of the time it can be like interpreted as like your self authorship. Like it is you saying this, like this is what you think and feel. And I guess in this to some extent, like in this work, like it was like the aura of it is sort of based on me living in modernity and not really being able to cope with it.

And I sort of hate it, but, but it is, it is taken to that like authoritarian, like fascistic extreme that I don’t identify with. And that I don’t. That like what Brad Tramiel calls the literalist like take on things. Yeah, totally. Yeah. And like he, like he’s got a pretty good like summation of that stuff.

It’s like, and, and, and even goes as far as to say like, you know, like the, the literalist stuff, which is like, just to be clear, it’s like, I see a movie with a bad guy in it. And it’s like, no, the movie’s bad. Yeah. Not that guy’s bad. Like the movie and the people that made the movie are bad. Yeah. Um, yeah. And like, you know, and like Brad’s kind of going and saying like, like, you know, people are doing this like to the point of like, you know, even like big mainstream movies and like all movies, you know, and like all culture, people are getting like super literal with it.

And it’s like, like a really stupid take. And like, it just loses all nuance. And I feel like in losing nuance, you lose that, that aura, that effectual aura. That’s really important. That ambiguity. Yeah. And that slippage that lets you appeal to like a wide audience and elicit like interesting thoughts.

Yeah. I think like the reason I trailed off with my like thing about Brad just then is because like, I worry if like, you know, I was just sort of running ahead of what he’s doing. He thinks. And like, I worry that like, that’s a bit of a, like just a dead end for like civilization that like, can, can we get that back to that?

You know, like, I don’t know. Like it’s a bit of a sort of doomer-y thought, but I don’t know if like there’s a way in the mainstream for that to go back to being like, you know, having some like, even just slightly like morally dubious characters. I mean, there was the like, there was obviously the like, the thing about the Joker was pretty funny.

When did that come out? 2018. That was like a whole thing. Like people were like, but it’s a bad guy. Like, and then it’s like, no, but he’s the hero of the movie, but it’s something. Yeah. People liked succession. Yeah. And everyone was like pretty bad, I guess. That’s hopeful. They’re all like bad people. But I think it’s like, it’s more so like that sort of like moral scope of like the, what, what the zeitgeist is super scared of.

Like, like obviously like fascism, fucking terrible. And like, I feel like when, when, when there’s any character that sort of expresses fascistic sort of awful, like maybe discriminatory tendencies, like it’s immediately seen as like the, the author’s actual view or opinion.

Like there’s, there’s obviously like fucking terrible ways to do it. And there’s so many examples where just like, where it’s like, yeah, I, you, you do think like this. Like, I’m pretty sure you do think like this. You could put out like just straight up Nazi propaganda. Yeah. Like, no, it’s. But to, but to represent something as a critique, I think is really important to like know thy enemy, as they say in media.

Or even just purely to be able to explore it as human or artistic, regardless of whether we want to use it for like a political. Yeah. Even to not pass moral judgment on it and just give it as it is. I suppose actors are like given the most leeway. Like we don’t really identify an actor with them. True. Yeah. That is a particularly thick headed take.

Like, yeah, it’s kind of awesome. That one’s kind of awesome. The guy that plays Dracula gets like actually killed.

Although, yeah, no, I mean, it never really happened. I was trying to think of like the, like, um, John Lennon assassin, like who like thought he was like doing him a favor or something. But yeah, anyway, that’s a, that’s a one-off thing. We have a strongly anti Beatles assassination stance on this part. We’re like, live and let it stop killing the Beatles.

I don’t know about that. Yeah. So yeah, I kind of ran ahead of that. It’s an editorialized opinion. Yeah. The opinion of the masthead. True. Yeah. Yeah. I think, I think, um, to, to wrap that thought up. Yeah. I think, uh, I, I, I, I feel it. I feel it. I feel it coming back.

I, I like watched a few movies recently. Everybody’s refinding faith in the audience to like get it. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. And to like, to, to like give it, give it to the people that get it. Yeah. And like not worry about the people that don’t get it as much. Great. That’s exciting. Uh, and also maybe a good place to wrap up the show for this week.

Thank you so much for listening. This, uh, is a pleasure to do with you guys every week. Uh, we appreciate your shows of support on Instagram very much. Uh, you can check out Jake on Instagram. We will put the link in the thing. And then finally a little bit of housekeeping. Oh, wait, one second.

Sorry if I’m stepping on your toes. How long do we have to see your video at Syrup? Um, you’ve got until June the 1st. Okay. So that, this may still be, wait, let me just check. It’s already over. So, so it’s already over. Last Saturday night. I hope you had a good night because you missed it. I’m sure you are.

There will be more. Keep an eye out. I’m, I’m going to definitely try and re-screen it again soon. Hopefully, hopefully in Sydney and hopefully in Melbourne for my Melbourneites. Cool. So watch this space. Tell a friend about the pod. Tell a fucking friend. All I will say. For God’s sake. Over back to you. Advertisers, small restaurants, breweries, whatever.

We’re open to like for like deals.

Uh, piano shops, you know, maybe. Uh, car mechanics. Talk to us, you know. All right, guys. Thanks very much. Thanks for having me, guys. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.

Bye. Maybe this is forever. Forever fades away. Like a rocket ascending into space.

Could you not be sad? Could you not break down? After all, I won’t let go. Until you’re safe and sound.

Until you’re safe and sound. There’s beauty in release. There’s no one left to please. But you and me.

I don’t blame you for quitting. I know you’ll really try.

If only you could hang on through the night. Cause I don’t want to be lonely. I don’t want to be scared. And all our friends are waiting there.

Until you’re safe and sound. Give me feel free and sound.

Bye.

Show notes

Word Cloud: What place does to video art; Harley Ives; Syrup; Healthy Cigs; There is a Soccer Field under Enmore Road; Dispossessed @ MCA; Relational Aesthetics; K-Pax  Jake on instagram @j.starr.io  Follow us on instagram for more @hungup.au