5.2 Micro Micro Climates With Sam Hodge

Transcript

Well, good morning. This is episode, this is the official episode one, although it’s technically two of season five, new season of Hung Up. Welcome everybody. I’ve got my co-host here, Aiden.

Say hello. Good morning. Good morning. He’s in a good mood. We just had a nice breakfast and we’re joined by Sam Hodge. Good morning, Sam. Hello. All right. What’s the tea? What did you have for breakfast? We had actually a pretty experimental breakfast. We had like beef tallow and vegetable stew,

seriously, with bacon and eggs, like boiled eggs. Is this like a leftovers thing? Yeah. Kind of. It was kind of inspired by a chef I used to work for who would do these like really cool like Palestinian stews. Okay. And it was just like, I fucking, he would make me that for lunch and I was like, this is the best.

Yeah. It was like a veg and bean heavy stew and then eggs and bacon and bread and fucking yum. Really nice wintery cheap stuff. Yeah. But I was going super slow cause I was going super chef mode and Matt’s like, come on, bro. Interviews in half an hour. Yeah. Wait, I got to fucking sprinkle the parsley just so. He was balancing like little leaves of stuff up.

Yeah. The presentation. It’s so fun though. I want this recipe. Yeah. Well, I was going to say I would probably make it without beef tallow next time. I would just use olive oil cause it was like a chicken broth, but then the beef tallow is pretty. What is beef tallow? It’s like lard. Oh, okay. Like just beef fat. Okay. But it’s, it’s honky stuff.

Macca’s used to do their fries and beef tallow in like the fifties or something. I read an article about the day they changed. Oh really? Oh yeah. To canola oil or whatever it is and how it ruined. And ruined McDonald’s. There was a whole generation of people who got to taste actual nice fries from McDonald’s. Definitely try that one time.

Yeah. Yeah. That’d be fun. I wonder how the Macca’s smelled cause like bro, my house smells honky for like two days after cooking with just a little tablespoon of this stuff. Yeah. Top stuff. Yeah. My roommates kind of like pissed off when I do it. I was fucking beef tallow again, dude.

All the windows are open. The 1890s style. Yeah. The beef tallow guy. Yeah. The beef tallow guy. I got to express myself. Um, yeah. And Sam brought us a lovely gift. Yeah. Which is so exciting. Which was, we saw this series, I believe at the art bar, right? Yeah. That’s right.

Yeah. What’s his name? Michael, um, what’s his name? Michael Reed. The Michael Reed art bar. And yeah, it’s like, um, like a Simpson frame with like a beautiful, like painted sort of wiggly border. Yeah. Um, and yeah, I think we, we like got in touch, like, uh, after that show, after we talked about that show, cause it was like, you know, you liked how we sort of took it like, you know,

a bit on the nose and like, I think we could detect something there. And you were like, yeah, I was, you were being a little bit like, what’s the word? Like a bit arch maybe. Yes. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yes, I was. I mean, yeah, that’s, that’s, um, I had, I had, uh, as seems to be the way with me at

the moment, I tend to get covert every time I’m installing a show and still have to do it. It’s contagious. Um, yeah, that was my, um, when was that 2022, 2021? I can’t remember. No, I think it was like, I think, I feel like it was 22 or maybe even. Yeah. Yeah. That was my like year of yes to art shows.

I guess. Yeah. My friend calls it my year of yes TDs.

But I was just like, I’m going to see what happens if I just said everything, say yes to every single show that year. Yeah. And, um, yeah. And what happened? What was, what was that like? Um, it wasn’t really my scene. Uh, but it was interesting, you know, the, the, I was really into the idea of a show

in a casino. Mm. Yes. I thought that would have been. And then I, the reality of it was a bit like, I don’t know, early nineties. No, late nineties. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It’s got this kind of dystopian thing. That’s like, you know, it can be fun, but I know what you mean. It’s like.

It was a bit too serious for itself. Like for, to be in a casino, I’d had to, I felt like you had to lean into the, like the ridiculousness of that. Yeah. But the best part was on the opening night, um, Shaquille O’Neal was DJing upstairs and there was, yeah. There was, yeah. So, lined up past the, past the opening past.

Yeah. I know. It was just like a thousand people all in like Lakers. Fuck yeah. Like outfit. That’s beautiful. So funny. Yeah. I love, yeah. There’s a lot. But I’m always like a sucker for like an art space that is in a context. Yeah.

There was some gallery that I used to really love in London. I think it was approach. And you just walk through like a pub, like a nice pub. Yeah. Yeah. I know it’s a small thing, but to me it felt like pretty huge. Yeah. Like I was like, everyone’s down here, like having fun and eating fucking Sunday roast and drinking beers. Yeah. And then I go from here into the gallery space. Yeah.

Cause sometimes real life and then gallery space is a little bit like, what’s going on here? Yeah. Yeah. I would, I would love to hear more about that show. And I was, I remember like, I think we sort of like poked some fun at it on the pod and I was a bit like, oh, is this going to be like taken badly? But then you were like laughing with us. Yeah. Cool.

Cool. Yeah. Yeah. But it was also really sweet because I don’t think we were expecting to actually see a really good show. We’re just like, it’s going to be stupid. And then we’re like, I don’t want it to go and find something to tease. I think so. Yeah. And then it turned out to be a really good show. Thank you. The museum in the casino context, which was hilarious. I remember that huge waterfall, like sculpture.

Oh yeah. That’s crazy. That was wild. A little laughs getting in and out of the casino. Did you go like on the opening night, I was not drinking. I go through periods where I just like decide to shut it off. Not for any big reason, but just that I’m like, okay, I’m not going to drink for a few months. And I was, and yeah. And I wasn’t drinking then. And I was like, fuck, I wish I had been.

But so I was with a friend. So we walked into the casino and I had never been to a casino before in my life. Yeah. And I was just like, just so disappointed by the casino. Yeah. I thought that it would be like glamorous and that it was just a giant RSL. Well, they do have the glamorous, like high roller bits for people who fly in for that

stuff. There’s a spot. That is there. It’s like, it’s like upstairs and stuff. Like, so I hear, but yeah, the, the, the ground floor of casinos is pretty much always like the cattle. Yeah. Yeah. It’s like, just get as many punters as you can. Yeah. Kind of thing. But yeah, us too, we were expecting like a little bit more of that, like 1970s, like

that’s what I want. I don’t know if you guys have seen the movie casino. Oh. That pizzazz, you know? I wanted like, uh, you know, Monaco. Yeah. Exactly. Like palm trees. Yeah. And that would have been cool. We were also like, like, I mean, you know, we were sort of hoping to be disappointed again. So like, it was, you know, it all fit like with, with our sort of picture.

That was a funny little like antagonistic day. You’re like, let’s do this. We wanted to find something funny. Yeah. Yeah. It was a good laugh. It’s, it’s a good way to, it’s a good way to like do stuff in town. It’s like, it’s like, I was saying to Aiden recently, like I only got, I only understood how to hate watch a movie like a few years ago. Really? I like watch movies like that with people and no one, there wasn’t really a word for

it. I didn’t, we didn’t know the word. So my friends would be like, we’re watching like Roadhouse and it’s a really shit movie, like the old one. And I’m actually, that’s a bad example. Cause I already knew how to do it by then. But anyway, we’d watch some movie and I’d be like, I don’t get it. It’s a bad movie. Like I just couldn’t, I couldn’t watch stuff with that. Yeah. You know, remove.

You need to watch Sex and the City 2. Yeah. Have you seen that? Have you seen that? No, I haven’t. Yeah. It is so good. And it’s makes the first movie amazing. Like you were like, if you thought Sex and the City 1 was terrible. Yeah. It’s suddenly, which I also haven’t seen. It’s suddenly genius by the time you get to season, the second movie, which is, I watched

it like three weekends in a row with friends just because there’s so much. Really? Cool. So much to dislike. Interesting. Yeah. It can be so fun. Yeah. That’s cool. Yeah. We, we, I went to see the, the Elvis movie, not the newest Elvis movie, but the big one that came out before. Oh, the.

Um, but the one, yeah. Baz Luhrmann one. And like me and the homies by, by now I like, I get it. And we were like all pretty drunk and watching this movie and like whooping and hollering and laughing. Yeah. And this guy, I happened to have a guy that I worked with like in the past, like sitting a few rows behind us. And he was sitting next to someone that none of us know who was getting like extremely

worked up and was like getting all like, fuck this. Like I’m going to fucking kill those guys. And then like stormed out of the movie halfway through. Wow. Yeah. People got, people got upset with the, like the level that we brought to that movie. Yeah. In our defense, it was a very silly movie. I’ve never seen it. I haven’t seen it either. People fucking like it though. So it was fun.

It was so much like it was, it’s a good movie cause it was silly. I think I’m saying. Right. Yeah. It was, but it’s not like, it’s not a good movie because it’s a good movie. If that makes sense. I don’t know. And I think I still struggle with it. I have like this memory of being like 14 and everyone was watching like Australia’s funniest home videos. Like all like the sort of family, friends, cousins, it’s like Easter.

And I’m like sitting on the couch with a frown and everyone’s dying. And they’re like, why don’t you find this funny? And I’m like, ah, that’s where it all started. Like me as a contrarian. Cause you were 14. Yeah. Or yeah, whatever. Yeah. Yeah. I know. I know the 14 year old. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

It’s taken like over 10 years to unwind some of those. It’s like, I’m 28 now and I’m starting to be less annoying. Yeah. But I think you would have had that too. I can imagine you like storming out in the middle of the thing. I’m going to have a cigarette. Yeah. Like in the middle of the bad movie. I mean, I’ve only walked out of one movie ever. And it was, I believe it was Avengers.

It was the first one. And I was like, I felt like I was being trained for a secret program. I can’t watch this. I tried to watch Avengers and I stopped. I just was like, this is, so I technically walked out with my fingers. True. True. Yeah. Yeah.

It’s a shit movie. Yeah. There wasn’t enough there for me to laugh at or something. And a lot of my friends were like genuinely like, wait, like, no, you don’t understand. Like this is where Superman, like, little Spider-Man or whatever. I’m like, I don’t care. There’s sort of a bit of legwork you need to do to understand those movies. So does, oh yeah, that’s right.

A friend was like, no, you have to start here. And I was like, that’s too many movies to watch. I’ve been watching all that. That’s funny. Yeah. I am on a real movie kick though. At the moment. I’ve gone a long time without watching movies. I went to the movies by myself, which is not that big a deal. But to me it was. I haven’t like, I don’t know if I’ve ever done that. Yeah.

Like I done it once when I was a kid. It’s such a treat. It was fucking awesome. I saw Lucky Mera. It’s nice because you, sorry. Lucky Mera, the film. It’s an Italian film. Okay. Small film, but it was fucking nice. Where’d you see it? Just Palace. Okay. It’s like a friend of mine who’s a comedian. She plays one of, it’s Zoe Coombsmire.

And she plays a shit comedian, Dave. Have you ever seen this? And one of her things playing terrible comedian Dave is to ask an audience member, like how they got to the venue. It takes like 10 minutes. I was just doing that. But, um. That’s a person, yeah. That’s a person. It’s like a piece of bad crowd work.

Yeah, yeah. So how much is the ticket? Like two, two 50 yards going up. Right. So you have to change at a central. Beautiful. And then what’s the walk? Um, but, uh, yeah, like going to the movies alone is amazing because you get to leave and not have to talk to someone about it. Yeah. I mean, I kind of like that, but it’s like, I need what I need.

Cause I, I watched a movie recently that I loved and I had a lot of thoughts about, but I needed like everyone to like stop talking for 20 minutes that I could like roll my eyes back into my head and like write the essay and then be like, okay, like now I’m ready. Yeah. To decompress. Yeah. I just needed to like, yeah, gather my thoughts about it.

But I do kind of like the post movie thing. What, what don’t you like about it? That’s so funny. What? Like, um, like chatting right after the movie. I need, I need the time. I need to just, especially if it’s a movie that I really enjoyed. If it’s shit, then let’s go to town. True. If it’s shit, it’s very easy. Yeah. Or if you guys have like different opinions. Yeah. That’s kind of sucks.

I know. And it really can ruin the experience. Yeah. That’s like the nice thing to clutch onto is like leaving and then not having to decipher whether or not it was like, yeah, no, I think so. Yeah. And that movie. Problematic. Yeah. It meant like more to me cause no one I know has seen it. And then I like had this, like, you know, I walked out of the cinema.

I walked to the bus stop. It’s like, cool. And I was just like me and like the movie. And it’s pretty like, I don’t know. It’s like a thoughtful sort of party movie. It’s just really nice. Yeah. Yeah. And then the next day I was like, okay, I want to read like some shit to get my fix. Yeah. But yeah, I don’t know. There’s sometimes like a pressure to have to like intellectually diagnose and dice like straight away.

You’ve got your fucking review. Yeah. Your neat review for your like smart friends. You’re like, well, this and this and these references. And I was just like, I kind of just want to feel it. So I like that a lot. Yeah. Yeah. The other day I watched contact when it was raining and cold. Have you ever seen contact? The one Jodie Foster. Yes. I love that movie. I really want to watch that.

It’s like 90s alien. It’s like, some of it was shot in Canberra for the dishes. Is that right? Like, maybe they did. I was thinking. They’ve got those like big space, like what do they call them? Radio telescopes. Yeah. The radio dishes. Yeah. Yeah. And I was just like, I’m gonna look it up, do some producing. It’s a great movie.

Have you seen that? Oh, is it like the alien? It’s where. Yeah. It’s where she’s just like a space scientist. What do we call this? Astrophysicist. Yeah. And she’s just like, gets a message. Yes. Wow. Wow.

Cool. Sound. And then they decipher it all. And it’s like code. And then they have to build this machine to visit this space. Yes. Yeah. The problem was though, is that there’s this Matthew McConaughey character who’s like the love interest. And it feels like such an off, like a studio afterthought. Well, we need a, we need a hot dude. Yeah.

Yeah. I’m going to put this script up a bit. Exactly. I looked it up. It was shot in New Mexico, not in city. Oh, okay. Sorry, everybody. Close enough. That would have been so cool. Why don’t we spread rumors? Yeah. We can start that here. I’ll just take that out. It’d be easy to spread some rumors. Hey, no, just leave it in. It’s so easy. I’m not doing any editing anymore. Oh yeah.

I should have said that on top. Like this is an edit list scene. Really? Oh shit. Yeah. I mean, we haven’t said anything. But yeah, let’s just, it’s basically live. I mean, if anyone says like huge slurs, I’ll make it seem like that didn’t happen. Do a beep. Yeah, we do. We will beep. But like, we used to like cut episodes up and now I’m like, that’s, it’s a lot. It’s just so much work.

Yeah. And I’ve got a lot of jobs as it is. So. All right. Don’t give the listeners too much of the secret sauce. And now you can’t even cut that out. Yeah. Because you’re refusing. I’m sorry about the Sex and the City. I’m sorry about beef teller conversation.

No, that’s all. We, people need to hear that stuff. People really need to hear that stuff. No, that’s what I really enjoyed about the podcast that I’ve been listening to you guys. Oh, thanks. The preamble. Yeah. Yeah. It’s always so, so fun. You need, yeah, you need a bit of, I mean, this is all, no, this is all ample. There’s no preamble. There’s no preamble post.

I mean, look, there’s a, there’s a jumping off point. I was going to say like. We’re deep in the amble. We’re kind of, we’re just running. But I was going to say before you arrived, Sam, we were talking about Alaska projects. Oh yeah. Cause I’m pretty sure that’s where we first saw your work. Oh yeah. Wow. There’s some construction going on. Fuck. Keep rolling with it guys. Yeah.

I think that’s super cool. Like we kind of like just with, well, I’ve never met you before. Have you, have you guys met? No. I’ve actually never met you and like have been sort of seeing your work and engaging with it, you know, comes up in the cycles for like what? 10 years now, which is cool. Yeah. So it is nice to like finally meet you. Same.

But yeah, I guess just Alaska projects. I kind of just feel like talking a little bit about that. Cause yeah, some people like some super young people don’t even know about it. Yeah. We keep talking about it because like there hasn’t really been something like that since that all stopped. The like original, I never really went to the second one. I don’t even know my history, but.

No, but I would say the space is still there. So if anyone wants to take it over. True. Can they do it? It’s just a car park. Yeah. Yeah. I don’t, what should I say? I mean like, yeah. Yeah. Like how did you like find out about it and like, you know. Well, someone started, someone started the space. Yeah.

Not you. Yeah. I know what you’re saying. We know you didn’t run it. Yeah. And it was, it was just for a couple of years, a really great space for gathering. I think that was the thing. Yeah. It was super cool. And I felt really open. Like obviously physically open, but like, so yeah, quite open as well.

Yeah. Yeah. It was like 10 meters from, sorry, 50 meters from where I lived. Oh, cool. So that was quite, quite easy for me. Like when I had a show opening there once, which I don’t particularly enjoy. Yeah. You know, it’s nice to have, but I would just like walk out, go home, like have a shower,

watch the Simpsons. Yeah. Come back for the last half hour. Yeah. And you’re like, I’m just making the rounds. Yeah. Like, oh, there you are again. Yeah. But it was really cool. It was a really fun time. Yeah. It was fun. Yeah. And, um, bit rogue and, and that, that was good. Yeah. But yeah. Yeah.

There was all this stuff about like, like sort of, I remember just hearing people talk about like permission to use the space and like getting that sorted out. Yeah. I always, cause I teach a bit and, or I often I’m talking to young artists who want to know how to do things. I’m just like, just have a show. Yeah. Like have a show in your house or have a show in a pub or ask someone if you can have a

space. Yeah, absolutely. And just, or just take a space. Yeah. But I find that people have a tough time doing, like coming to terms with that. I don’t know. Is it actual jumping off and like, what do you think it is? Like, is it saying to everyone, like I’ve got the show on? Yeah. I think it’s scary.

Like the first show I ever had was in a clothing store in Sorry Hills, the Swedish, the Swedish jean shop that I was shopping in. And I was like, Oh, could I have a show here? And they’re like, sure. And they cleared all the racks for me. And then we just were allowed to have it. And I’d never had a show before and I was terrified. But then I remember a friend come up and I’m going, Oh, thank God it’s good.

Yeah. I was like, all prepared. Yeah. Buddy you are. That’s great. That’s the best comment you could hear. Yeah. I was like, Oh, thank you. It was like, phew. Cause you know, you never know. What was the, like what was in the show? What were you? Oh, it was like when I was doing just photography and I had like a mixture of really large prints

that were of like, you know, the usual just friends. I’ve had a job on a porno at one point. So, it was a giant, giant shots from like the porno. Cool. Then they were just like, I can’t remember. There was like 12 giant prints. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. A friend with a black eye. Yeah. No, that stuff. Yeah. Cool. Oh, I should have brought, I should have brought you some of the, Oh, I’ve got pile of these publications. Yeah. Oh yeah. We’d love. Yeah. I’ll return. You just got up. Yeah. I was in, I was saying to Matt yesterday.

I liked that idea of like, I was at Glee Books, like on my lunch break yesterday. And I just saw this like little journal. I think it was called Riverstone. Right. Literary journal. And I just, you know, a new journal on the shelf, but it was like super homemade. Like it was basically a zine. Yeah. But the poems are really good. And they’re like, we’re calling ourselves a journal. Yeah. Like, and yeah, I was looking at like Dan, who’s been on the show before, like who created

No More Poetry. Dan Ward. And it’s like, Oh, you really just did it. Like, there’s not really much more. Like there’s nothing so different between you and I or someone who hasn’t had a show. And it’s just like, you just like, you just did it. You just, do you just like put it, you be like, here’s the journal. That’s it. Yeah. Especially in Australia. Like it’s literally now a journal.

Yeah. And people think that you have to go through all these like points. You have to go from here to here, you have to study here, then go here and then go to this space. Whereas like I wasn’t in the arts at that point. Like I had friends who are artists and I was like, wow, that’s interesting. But I’ll just have my own shows separately. And I published my own books. Cool. And then had those art.

How did you do that? The first one, my like hand, I taught myself how to like hand bind and make a book. Cool. I don’t have a copy of that one. Yeah. I made like 40 copies of that and it was really- A lot of work. It was so annoying. And then the second one, I discovered this like newspaper printing company that did like

the Asian Financial Times. That’s so cool. I want one. Yeah. They’re in Marrickville. And I just rocked up and said, I know you just do like- The Asian Financial Times. The Asian Financial Times and catalogs and things like that. Would you want to print this like book of like everything that I’ve ever done to this

point? Wow. And so, we kind of invented, well, we kind of made up a way of printing it, of cutting it, then folding it. And I worked with the designer so that it would fold, it goes from A5 to like a broad sheet and fold it. Yeah. Cool. And then they were like so excited.

So cool. Because they were so obviously they were like- They were a bit bored of- Yeah. And I have the same thing. And I just- That is so cool. Yeah. And it was like a thousand copies for like, yeah, like $1,200. Sheesh. Cool. Cool. And they were like, I was so fun because they had like plates and stuff that it went on

to. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then they said, cause I was worried about like quality and they said, no, we’ll do this thing where in the middle of the financial times, we’ll put yours through the middle so that it gets the perfect amount of ink. That’s so cool. Damn. Awesome. That is so cool. Yeah.

So like- And it took five minutes. Yeah. So cool. That is so cool. I love that. Yeah. Like a fold out broad sheet thing. Yeah. Those, those fucking kids in New York during COVID that like made a newspaper. That’s it. It’s like, we want, we’re like really dying for this. Well, everyone was like so obsessed with like quality books. I remember when I was doing it, they were like, oh, it has to be this, this, this, this,

this. And I was like, just do it. Just print it. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. And now I’ve got so many, I use it as wrapping paper. Beautiful. Cool. Yeah. Just print it. I like that. I’m writing this poem and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I never finished them. And Matt was like, just release it. Yeah. That’s my philosophy at the moment.

Just release it. Yeah. Yeah. Don’t be too scared. Yeah. I’m especially like, I’ve haven’t really shown much of anything. Yeah. Ever. You’re a poet. Yeah. When I was a kid, I had a joke that I thought was the best joke in the world. And it was, I’m a poet and I, and I never realized.

Nice. Beautiful. Very contemporary. My family was like, that’s not actually how it goes. I was like, anyway, thanks for listening guys. You can edit that one. Good. I was like a six year old. I thought that was like, I’m saying that’s good. I’m saying that’s really good. Yeah. Thank you. The deadpan joke.

Like, you know, it’s like that joke. What’s the difference between a duck? Like, I really like that. It’s like this joke just stops. Yeah. That’s it. Yeah. Cool. I’m going to look up the Asian Financial Times. Yeah. Because I want to fucking print a newspaper book myself. Yeah. Yeah. So, no, you said you weren’t doing it. I was, I proposed the idea.

You’re like, I can’t be, that’s all on you. You can’t come back in now. No, for my photos. Fuck you, dude. Okay. Fuck you. I need to, I need to print some of my photos finally. Like, cause I’ve been, I’ve been doing like little enlargements and stuff for a while now, but it’s like, it’s fucking time to put something out. Oh, I’ll say you up. I’ll say you up. Will you? Yeah. Thank you.

Yeah. Someone who’s, yeah. It’s like, it’s gotta happen. Yeah. What I was, what we were saying about that, this idea of like just publishing or just doing the thing is like, like I was thinking about, um, like, cause I’m a musician too. And it’s like, I’ve got this record that I’ve been like sitting on and like, it’s like a little egg that I’ve been sitting on. And, and it’s like, I realized one day, like you, you, what you really need to do is book

a week in the studio with someone like managing the technology staff. And then you just like, you face, you face yourself up with a bunch of decisions to make. It’s like, what would I make? What decision would I make if I had to write a melody here rather than like, what is the best melody? Yeah. No, fuck that. Like just, you’re an artist. Like you’ll figure it out.

It’s that, I really like that attitude. It’s that thing where like the, like, you know, the trust the process kind of vibe that even though it sounds a bit naff, but it’s like, I’ve gotten to the point now where it’s like, okay, I have this idea in my head and then it comes through my head into my body out of my hands. And then whatever it is, is what it is. You’re like, oh, okay. That’s what it became.

Yes, exactly. I’m okay with that. Yeah. And it’s left me. Yeah. It’s like, it’s gone now. Yeah. I like it. Yeah. I’m like, I’m still, even though we’re talking about this, like I’m still like doing it, you know, I’m like sitting on stuff. Yeah. It doesn’t feel good. Just like chuck it out. Yeah.

I mean, get it out there. Oh yeah. I mean, I’d be willing to talk a lot of this stuff. Yeah. I’m like, fuck it. Yeah. I think like you, even if you don’t put stuff out, you know, the hopeful take is like, you still grow as an artist. Like definitely, even though, like, cause you’re still working on stuff, you know? Yeah. It’s just like, I have, I’ve been like effectively quiet for like, I don’t know, like three years

now. Crazy. But that’s okay. I totally do that all. I do that all the time. I will go a year without making any work. Yeah. But then I’ll like, just be thinking about it. Cool. And then by the time it comes, you know what to do. Yeah. Yeah. That’s part of it. I like that a lot.

Remember your training. Yeah. Remember bootcamp. Yeah. Cool. I’ve been watching a war TV show. So everything goes back. Oh really? I tried to put it on for like five seconds and it was like, turn it off. I don’t watch war movies, bro. I’ve been watching Portlandia. Cause someone uploaded the whole seasons as one long YouTube video.

I love when they do that. It’s so fucking clever. And is the aspect ratio off? It’s pretty good. Okay. I don’t know. Resolution is not amazing, but watchable. Yeah. But fuck. It’s a funny show. I once like early seasons. When I was like 21, I got asked to take a portrait of like Sleeta Kinney for a magazine

and I had no idea who they were. That’s cool. And I went and my camera broke halfway through and I just pretended to keep taking photos. Oh fuck. And then they’re like, hey, do you want to come to the concert later? I was like, no, I’m okay. Thanks. And then just left. And then all of my friends now are like, I was like, look at this picture I found at

Carrie Brown’s day. I’m like, what? That’s so cool. That’s awesome. Yeah. You got some great ones. I remember seeing one I loved. I think it was just like a model in France. Oh, black and white. I think it was on your Instagram. It was like a really sweet caption. I was just like, do you remember that one? The old photo days. Yeah. Yeah. Where everyone thought they were my friends.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Like, wow, you hang out with a lot of beautiful people. Yeah. I met that person for two minutes. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Was it just a stranger? No, I was being sent around to take portraits of people. Yeah. Cool. By who? Magazines. Yeah.

Agencies. Just something to do when I was living overseas. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. To do, to get the photo. Yeah. I really liked that idea. That was, I really enjoyed that part, like meeting people and hanging out with them. Yeah. So were you like a fashion photographer for a while? For a hot minute. Okay.

Yeah. After the books, then the fashion world was like, come take photos. And then I was in a book. This is a very quick story, but I took, I did it for a couple of years and I pretty much hated it most of the time. Yeah. Yeah. So I try to use it as an opportunity to make work.

Yeah. So that’s where like a lot of the kind of really bizarre, like artworks that I exhibit came from, from having like models and having hair and makeup and props on set. Yeah. So I’d be like, Oh, I’m going to like, there’s a portrait of Murray Bartlett from, you know,

that actor looking through a giant oversized glory hole. Yes. And he was sent for me to take a portrait. Do you know South African Bartlett? No, no. He’s from Australia, but he was on sex in the city and I’m going to run through Murray’s Oh yeah. I know this guy. IMDB. Yeah. But he came to prominence in White Lotus.

Yeah. Yeah. But before that, like, yeah. Yeah. But he, he was, he was sent, I was meant to take a portrait of him for a magazine in the UK, the Netherlands. Cool. And then when I was, I was like, Hey, so it kind of sprung on him. Yeah.

This idea of artwork I wanted to make. He was like, yes. He was like, of course. So cool. And it was really, really good. But my, yeah. So I did all that. And then I was in this book and they had this exhibition at foam museum and this book launch for this, like the future of fashion photography, like the top 30 fashion designers, fashion, fashion photographers of the future.

And I went there and I was on this panel with all these guys who just make millions of dollars a year. They make a lot of money. Yeah. Like, how do you get to do like all this work? Like I would love to. And I was like, Oh, I don’t make any money. Yeah. And then they’re like, Oh, yeah. And they, they really disliked what they did. Yeah. So then I like had meetings with agents there and they were like, move here, shoot for like

Uniqlo. And, um, I was like, Oh, I don’t think I can do that. So yes, it’s a, it is a, um, double edged sword that stuff. Look, if I loved it, it would have been amazing. Yeah. I just didn’t enjoy meeting people who didn’t like it, but yeah. Yeah. But I do know people who do it and love it, which is, yeah.

I’m, I work for people that, that do that. Like I’m, I’m like a photographer’s assistant. There you go. Yeah. Both of the, the sort of two main photographers that I work for, like, they seem to love it. Yeah. And especially like, they’ve got their lives set up in a way that it works for them. Absolutely. Are they like artists? We don’t want to work too much. Are they like artists first though?

Or are they, cause I imagine it would be especially difficult if you were like, I’ve got air quotes, like an artist first. Yeah. And then don’t know about Beck, but yeah, like he’s a working photographer. Yeah. He’s not interested in conceptual glory hole shoot. It wouldn’t. And therefore there isn’t like a lack of, it’s closer to a job.

It’s just like a really sick job rather than a sort of bastardized version of my art form. I would have loved that. Like I thought, oh, I can combine the two and then I’ll make money. But then no one wanted me to do what I did. Yeah. You know, I did every time I made money, I would just like stop working for as long as possible.

Yes. That’s how I live. Yeah. Cause you can get sometimes some pretty big paychecks in this business. But it’s like, well, I guess we’re taking next week off. I took two years off for one job. And then that was, that was, yeah. But I moved to like, you know, I moved overseas straight away and then came back, you know, like I wasn’t setting myself up to like have a career.

I was kind of fucking myself up a lot. Yeah. Which was, yeah. That’s where I’m at now. Like I just got out of like hectic, like a couple of years of very big work, like office work shit. Yeah. And now I’m just making coffee again. Great. Like, yeah, I kind of have sort of abandoned. I mean, a lot of people, younger people have abandoned a whole setting themselves up,

but I’m like two years now is worth, I’m sorry. Like, I don’t give a fuck if I don’t have X savings. Like, just give me the, give me the two years now. Yeah. I’ll take the cash now. Yeah. I’ll take the cash now, please. Like, but it’s fucking awesome. Like life’s so much better. Yeah. Like, I quit that, came back to Australia.

And then when I worked at an office, a government office for two years as well. Yeah. And then just like, was like, I’m not coming back. Yeah. You get some skills that I don’t, I don’t regret it. And at least I got something out of it. Yeah. If I could do admin. Yeah. Admin assistant. I don’t want to be full admin. Yeah. But if I could just be an admin assistant and copy and paste into an Excel spreadsheet all

day long, I’d be, that’s. You could do that. I’ve done jobs like that where it’s like, wow, this is like a robot could pretty much like just about replace my, in fact, I think, I bet you AI probably has replaced that job that I did a couple of years ago. Right. But yeah, it’s funny. It’s like, it did drive me insane in the end. I ended up doing the last sort of six months of that job was in the lockdown.

So it was like a stupid job and nothing to do with AI. Yeah. Fuck. That sucks. Which was weird. I could do it, but I want like a fun coworker. Just give me at least one. I was working with a friend from high school. Oh, that’s just pretty funny. Yeah. And it was a three man company. It was our boss, Peter, Jonathan and me.

Wow. It was a pretty funny job. That’s it. Yeah. But you’re fired. Well, yeah, they, they sort of got, they lost. It was a, what it was, was like a data analysis firm. And like, I didn’t study this stuff, but Jono was like, Hey, you’ve been complaining about your job. Like every time you come here to smoke weed with me, we’re actually looking for someone

like, do you want to like start working for me? And I was like, yeah, cool. And, uh, yeah, we did like this crazy, like eye tracking stuff where like people would get paid to wear. Yeah. Tracked your eyes through like movies and stuff. Yeah. And, um, yeah. And when the lockdown hit, like we just lost a bunch of that work and they were like, you know, you’re casual.

We’ve got to let you go. See ya. Yeah. But you know, I was getting the government bucks by then anyway. So yeah, that’s okay. But yeah, it was, it was a funny, like serious spreadsheet type job. I used to have to like, one part of the job was drawing, drawing outlines around individual products in a picture of a shelf.

So it’s like, you had a picture of all the cereals and you’ve got to draw like a red outline around the Kellogg’s and then another red outline around the like. What were those images called again? They had like a technical. We called them stitches. Oh, to see like where your eye would go. Yeah. Because like customers. Yeah. Yeah. Product placement working.

Under the NDE that I signed. Yeah. Like whatever, like wow. You didn’t. Yeah. There was like, there was like a process of like mapping, like where people looked onto these things that I was drawing. And like, it was incredibly labor intensive because this was in the days, back in the day before they had AI assistants, you have to just do that stuff manually.

Yeah. That was like four years ago. Yeah. Yeah. I know. Yeah. That’s funny. Yeah. That was one cool thing. It’s like, I wonder if I can say this. Yeah. Fuck it. Like part of the, I won’t say it. No, I can’t say it. I’ll tell you off the mic.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It’s like, there’s just one really cool thing about photography. Just like sign up to our Patreon to hear Sam’s off the record record and Matt’s slash Patreon. Matt, uh, busting his, uh, NDA. The, the sewable part. Exactly. Only three bucks a month. Yeah.

Part of that, like, um, the, the, like, uh, soliciting for tea thing. Like there was something that I, I was trying to say, but that like, you know, spoke to someone who like has a bit of legal experience. She’s not a lawyer, but she’s like, you know, anyway, she was like, that could get you sued. So I’m like, don’t say that. Like, it’s one of those things.

Australia is so litigious. So you can’t like, like, it’s not illegal to be a sleaze bag. Yes. But if you call someone a sleaze bag. Yes. Then you’ll go to court. Absolutely. The libel laws here are turns out are like very tight. Yeah. And it’s very easy to prove that you have been libelous.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So what would you say? Yeah. Yeah. You could pre, you could pre declare bankruptcy now. That’s a good idea. Yeah. Yeah. That’s a good idea. You can’t sue me. I’ve got no money. Yeah. Yeah. If anything ever hit the fan, that’s the first thing I’m doing is declaring bankruptcy.

Yeah. Nice. Yeah. I have like, it’s in my search history in the lot, like in the last year, it’s in the search history. I was running a company, so, um, but yeah, I didn’t have to go through with it. Thankfully for now. Oh God. Yeah. Too real dude. Yeah. Yeah.

That’s funny. Yeah. I love the idea of like shit. You don’t hear about that happening to like people around here. It’s like, oh yeah. He like won the lottery and then like got addicted to math and then went back up. Like you just don’t hear stories about that. It happens. Haven’t you seen today tonight, a current affair? That’s mostly what all those stories are. They’re like, I won $5 million.

Now I have nothing. My sister doesn’t talk to me anymore. She’s invested at all in like stocks and is now. In Bitcoin. Yeah. Fuck. Nah, I don’t watch that stuff though. Oh, we should be watching more. Obviously. We have a duty. As now I’ve just like randomly declared us a news outlet.

I was like, hey, didn’t like that. I was like, listen, I’ve got this story I want to go and do. And you were like, yeah, cool. Go do it. And then like, yeah, cause we’ve never done that before. It was, it was really like, it was pretty hastily put together. If I may say so. Yeah. I get you. I’m like, I’m not a fan of the thing guys, but yeah, you know, we’ll try and do a bit more. It is what it is, man. No, I actually, I’ve, I lost sleep over that story.

And then like half of the stuff that was going on at NASA, I just couldn’t report on cause it’s like libel-less. Right. Yeah. Cause I didn’t have any evidence of like X, Y, Z happening. I’ve only been keeping up through your Instagram. Yeah. Well, we’re trying to get some like, you know, again, once again, calling out all, we have

a new form. We’ve got a whole new submission form. If you have anything on the misuse of school funds at NASA, please visit the link in our bio, send us an email or drop an anonymous. Great. You could also add all the other art schools onto that. Yeah. That’s true. NASA is the one that I know about, but if you go to any kind of secondary or tertiary

education thing here that you want to report on, you know where the link is. Yeah, but like, fuck. I think, yeah, we might be up against something cause you know, you go to a party and like people like, yeah, I go to SAA, like you’ve never met them before. And like they did this thing and this thing and this was fucked and this show was evil and now grad show was ruined. Yeah. And like my whole art career is over, but they’re not going to say that even in the anonymous

Google form. Give them a chance. Okay. There’s a challenge for y’all. Yeah. We don’t think you got the shot. The Aaron Brockovich of the artsy. Yeah. The fucking Navalny of the artsy. Assassinated by the powers that be hit with the heart attack gun. It’s heartbreaking. Really heartbreaking stuff.

The CIA heart attack gun. The tech gun. Damn. I thought when I got sick last time, I thought I was hit with the heart attack gun for investigating. The most recent one. Yeah. That’s where my mind went. Cause I was like, I just got sick. Like surely not. True. True. I realized we live in Sydney, not in Washington DC or Moscow.

That’d be pretty cool. Yeah. Moscow would be cool. Yeah. Have you seen, yeah. Have you seen any? Yeah. This is the latest syrup show. This work by Jake. Yeah. Amazing. So cool. I went and saw it on two weeks ago. Yeah. Really, really great. Yeah.

Really dope. I just saw it yesterday. Yeah. Yeah. And it was like, fuck, it was cool. Cause me and Jake were kind of working on a movie that I’d written like a script for him to read. Um, and it like, it fit the themes just happened to fit like quite closely. Right. Just out of the blue. Um, but yeah, I loved it.

I thought it was so clever. I know. I was so, um, relieved. Yeah. To have seen. Yeah. This work. Yeah. Cool. I had never, I don’t know. I just felt like there was like a lot of work put into it, but also it seemed, uh,

I don’t know. Because it was like a really compelling video work. Yeah. But like the, the, the, the, the meaning behind it, like it could have just been a compilation of videos of deers gone. Yes. Like the funniest film videos of deers. Yes. But like the, the, the larger meaning of it felt really, it felt really weighted and

potent. Yeah. For sure. And I don’t normally get something that is so, I don’t know, it felt very clear to me. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean like, like it’s using like, um, like a really sort of, what’s the word? Like really astute, like language of cinema stuff. Like the first sort of five minutes of it is really edited like a horror movie.

Yeah. Where like you see these people fleeing, but you don’t see what from, you know? And then you just see like one frame, like a flash of the head of a deer. Yeah. And then like the script goes on and then you start seeing more deers and like the news reports, you know, which is perfect. Like the day after the horror movie inciting incidents. And the way that the, the one thing that really stuck, uh, struck me was, um, when they refer,

they interview some kid and they call the kid a victim. Yes. I love that. Yeah. All these little kids. Yeah. Very good. Sense of humor in, uh, like sitting alongside this, like very serious, like, you know, if you wanted to, if, if someone was reading that in bad faith, that would be like melodramatic

or whatever, you know, like it was like on the edge. Yeah. Yeah. Fucking clever, clever video work. Yeah. And like, again, like just, it’s, I was like, you know, if we were talking about being relieved, I was like relieved to see like a video work that’s got like, you know, a beginning and an end, you know? And like, it’s got like, it’s got a bit of like that sort of Hollywood snap that we’ve

been talking about where like, you know, referencing, you want to keep, you want to see what happens. You want to find out what happens. Yeah. Um, and it’s like kind of rare, you know, I think maybe people have been lost a bit in the sort of the postmodern, like quagmire of just like, I mean, there’s a really quick, like mean take down a video art.

Some old critics said it’s like, we already have video art. It’s called movies. That’s the good one. Like what are you doing? John McDonnell. Yeah. I’m like, he’s good. We should get on the pod. Can you? But like, sometimes, sometimes. I don’t even know what does John McDonnell look like? And what does he do? He looks like Michael Reed. Yeah.

He does look like probably. It looks like if Michael Reed was like less interesting. Yeah. He’s like a big, like old guy. I probably shouldn’t say that. He’s got. Is he just like a Robert, Robert Hughes type of guy. He’s like the, the, I was going to say, he’s like the Ebert of the. What’s that? But it’s like old, old vibes, but like he fucking knows a lot about art and paintings

and Australian art and indigenous art. Like, but yeah. I’m always very excited to see when he’s done a review. Yeah. Yeah. What’s he going to say? Yeah. Yeah. It’s funny that he’s, is he the only reviewer that exists? Kinda. Like, no, like they, but the thing is like, he’s one of the few, very, very few, like handful

of people that actually do like something that looks like criticism. Yeah. Cause you know, if you see in most newspapers, like actual print papers, it’s like pretty much always a five star. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Advertising. And it’s like, this is so good. Yeah. There’s memo, memo review. Oh yeah. Yeah.

They’re pretty serious. Yeah. Good, good. It’s like underground, you know, but they’ve just released their first edition in print, right? Which was a pretty nice thick, like really nicely like presented thing. Yeah. I looked at that. I had a flick through. It looks really beautiful. Um, uh, I don’t really like read the reviews, but like it’s very steady and serious and there’s, a lot of works going into that.

Um, yeah, I guess like, do you know, like the white pube from the UK? They’re really, really great. And really like sort of brought a whole different, uh, angle to criticism. Like check them out. I think, I think you’ll like it. The white pube. The white pube.

Um, to like super young women from the UK who like, you know, they did their emoji reviews and they would ground like it’s got like, uh, originally it was just art, but now it’s fucking like art and cooking and video games. Right. And it’s super like, they call it like embodied criticism. Okay. Which is kind of in, it’s like, I think like, it’s kind of funny that it is sort of like

John Berger vibes. It’s just like, like trust yourself and trust your humanity and like, look at the artwork and don’t worry about like not having an art degree. And if it’s boring, it’s boring. And like, you know, all that shit. I know. That’s the thing. I have to say, I think the one thing that like really is, I don’t know.

I find it really common is like art anxiety, like artist anxiety about other artists. Like you go to a show and feel. No, no, no. I mean like, uh, people being anxious about art when you’re in the art. So comparing yourself being freaked out whether or not you’re doing good enough or like getting

caught up in the system of the structures of art instead of making, instead of making the work. Yeah. So is that, do you think like a Sydney thing, is it like exacerbated by some parts about No, I think everywhere I’ve lived around the world, there’s just like this like competition. Yeah. But it’s, um, it’s so funny because it doesn’t mean anything.

And yes, it’s like this micro micro climate of just like anxiety and fear about people getting things and you not getting things and that is kind of ridiculous. Getting represented by this place. Yeah. I think it’s very, it comes from an academic perspective as well. Yeah.

Because so much of art is institutional. That’s it. It really is at uni and like you might graduate. Yeah. So SEA and you like some people will, but maybe half or more might never experience that level of like frequency of making. That’s it. Community of artworks, blah, blah, blah, blah, and this whole system. So if it’s going to come from institutions and it’s going to be like marked and it’s going

to have rubric and it’s going to be structured in this way. Yeah. It doesn’t surprise me that the end sort of culture comes out. Yeah. Yeah. Mirroring a lot of those structures. You end up like I taught one subject at an art school and the thing that stood out was this idea that you leave and you get a job, like you make money and you have shows

and you’re represented at like, you know, Sarah Cottya straight away or Rosalyn or all those, there’s this desire without like, I don’t know. And then it’s like, no, it’s sad, but true. But the process is the point. Like that’s the only thing that matters. So you have to quit all of that and just keep doing it.

Yeah. That’s the like, it’s funny. Cause it’s like, that’s the sort of deal. Like you’re talking about photography or like, it’s like when we even like choose to go and like study art or like make an artwork or anything like, like living this creative creative life, you know, there’s like a deal, like a fair trade of like, there’s no money in this.

Like probably, you know, that’s a bit of a sort of betrayal of that. Like pretty like real sacred deal. Like, yeah, you just have to pretend you are as well. Yeah. There’s the, yeah, yeah, sure. But, but you know, like you, you hack together a life to make sure. And occasionally you do make money and then that’s really traumatic in itself having

to like, to sell a work. Yeah. Totally. Yeah. That’s interesting. Weird. Yeah. Because it’s like, I don’t want to get rid of it often. And then, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Sure. But yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It’s funny.

I’m always in trouble. Cause I, I have, I give away, I give away too much work. That’s a nice dinner there. With drinks. With drinks. Yeah. And drinks. And maybe a bag. Yeah. We bought this one artwork from this guy. My mom’s, my mom listens to the pod and she’s like, tell Matt to stop talking about drugs on the podcast. Really? I can’t listen to it anymore. I can’t talk about drugs.

We bought that and the guy was like, yes, like that’s another bag. Like, cause he had like 12 of them. Yeah. I remember. 12 bags. And they were all like. They’re $350. Yeah. So he was like, we measure artworks in bags. Fucking 10 bags for Jake’s video. Jesus. Or 50 bags if you’re in LA. Yeah. Yeah.

True. So. Wow. We should’ve moved to LA. I’ve never talked about bags before. Yeah. I don’t even like do drugs. So I don’t know why she gets that from. Me neither. I mean, I do drugs, but like. None of us do. It doesn’t matter. Yeah. I’m just like, I’m concerned. It’s okay. Don’t worry. I’m just messing with you. Let’s just off mic. Yeah.

I guess like teaching. Do you still teach at all? Yeah. I teach at UTS mostly. Cool. Which I really like. Yeah. It sounds like a cool school. It is really great. Yeah. You know, you have a lot of students who, I don’t know, they don’t, they’re not going there to be artists. So you have a real, there’s less anxiety.

Yes. Cool. And I get to go in and be like, hey, have you seen this and this and this and this? Yeah. And then you get the odd student who actually goes off and explores that. Sick. And it’s really magical. That sounds great. Yeah. Yeah. What are you teaching exactly? I teach fashion theory. No shit. Yeah.

And design practice. Cool. A project that I run where the students have to, we collaborate with the powerhouse and they have to search through the powerhouse collection and it’s kind of a hypothetical. So it’s like you’ve been employed by the powerhouse to, as an artist, to create 10 art,

to make 10 artworks inspired by the collection. Gotcha. Cool. And then we print a book. Sick. It’s an intensive. It goes for six weeks. Yeah. Sounds like a lot of fun. Yeah. Within like week three, they’re like extraordinary outcomes. Yeah. You just get the most experimental. Yeah.

Fun. Hell yeah. Fun work. And some of those students will go off and have exhibitions. There’s one student, Timmy, Timalean, who I think will do really well. Cool. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Yeah. It’s nice. It’s really rewarding seeing this stuff. So I teach that and I teach another subject, critical approaches to visual culture, which

is a fun, lots of image based stuff where students have to gather images and look for signs and symbols. Yeah. Cool. That sounds like fun too. Yeah. I like it. Is that also kind of like archive, like hype stuff? Yeah. Like students developing archives of materials, then looking to see connections and be like, okay, I gathered a hundred images.

What relates here? Yeah. Cool. And it’s a lot of, that’s a first year subject as though they’re always like, what? Yeah. Yes. Yeah. What are they, you’re saying they’re not like necessarily artists. It’s like a fashion. It’s like a design school. Design. Yeah. Architecture, building design. Okay. Cool.

And that’s where I’m at. That sounds fucking awesome. And I found, I found that school of all the places I’ve worked to be. Um, I think it’s taking a step back from the, the, I mean, I never went to art school besides my masters, but, um, uh, I, yeah.

I’ve, yeah. I don’t know. I don’t know what, what, what, what. Taking a step from. Take. Oh, so taking a step. When I’m at the design school, I just, the students seem much more open to explore ideas and to explore possibilities. Yeah.

And even if they take that to go workers, like graphic designers, that’s still like, they, they, they, they’re able to, to have really broad abilities to research. Yeah. To experiment. Iterate ideas. Yeah. Make money. That’s interesting. I want to know, like, what’s your sort of relationship to your own archive?

Like, are you good with that stuff? Do you keep a, like, you know, a meticulous archive or are you just like, get rid of it? Well, at the beginning of the year, I was asked to be in an exhibition at Cassandra Bird Gallery. Yeah. And they were like, can you bring in what you’ve got? And I just literally have a box of stuff and I just dumped it on the floor.

Yeah. And it’s like, that’s it. Yeah. Thousands, thousands of pieces. So, I make and then I, I’ll make that and then I’ll put it into a box. Yeah. And then it’s, it just piles up. Cause I was doing those massive installations. Yeah. And then, to pull those out separately, I never really look at them. So, this morning I was like, just like, it’s like, it’s very messy.

Yeah. Pulling things out. But it sounds like you’re, you’re keeping stuff, you know, at least. Everything is, yeah, just in the box. Yeah. In the boxes. In the boxes. Great system. Yeah. That’s cool. What do you think Mr. Archives? Yeah. I mean, I’ve got a pretty good like archive of like photos I’ve taken by what year they are, but I just, there’s something about it being in a computer that just makes me like

hate it for some reason. Yeah. I take a lot of the stuff out of the computer and then it’s painted onto and printed. Yeah. Yeah. Because you said that I, this is all hand painted. Yeah. Because you were saying it was a photo that I’d figured out Photoshop.

And I was like, ah, little did they know. Yeah. So, so it’s not hand painted. It is. No, it is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. How did we miss that? We’re painting on top of pictures. So I made an ink that looks like it’s printed. That was the goal.

That trick. Yeah. So it gets a bit confusing because sometimes I’ve scanned the work and then printed and I’m like, oh no, I can’t tell which one’s the… But you know it’s original because the back is stained. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cool. Yeah, nice. If the back’s dirty… That’s how you know. It’s still a real one. Love it. That’s how you know. It’s chillin’ back out, mate.

Yeah, cool. Love it. Yeah, I like it. That’s cool. Yeah, I think the physical… What’s the word? Like artifact is just always gonna be so much more fun for an artist to go through in general, especially if it’s your photo. Yeah. Yeah, I feel you. All these digital photos, they feel so heavy now.

Dude, I fucking love that. The heaviness because it’s like, I’ve been always like a sort of… Do you mean like weight? Yeah, kind of weight. Psychically heavy. Oh, right. Well, it’s funny to think, right? I was thinking about photo albums and stuff and I saw some great old like family photos recently from like the 50s in this beautiful old book

and they had so much character. And it was like, everyone was sort of gathering around these old family histories. And I was just thinking how… And yeah, I’ve mostly been pretty minimalist. I’m like in my life. I’m like, I don’t want to have many things. I don’t… Like I would throw it out. Like I don’t want to have like 200 records or books.

As soon as the books pile up, like take them to the fucking Vinny’s. Yeah. But it’s funny now that you say, Matt, like that a digital archive can feel heavy because it’s like I could have, you know, this whole room’s worth of photos in one beautiful thin, thin, thin, like MacBook Air over there. Yeah. And like from one perspective,

that’s like super minimal. There’s just one computer in the room. But in this like feeling of heaviness for me, I’m like, I kind of know what’s going on. And it’s also not visible. Like I almost, I really want to just have a photo album. Yeah. Like with like a curated, you know, and then they’re right there. Not a billion photos on a fucking hard drive.

And then you’ve got hard drives piling up. It drives me insane as well. Yeah. But that’s what I’ve been doing. What does? The digital, like just the part. Because, you know, I’ve been going through everything. Yeah. And it’s like going through all the folders that say sort one, sort two, sort 2019. And the sorts within sort.

And then making those into work. Yeah. So that they’re there. And then. Cool. Yeah. But one year I was so freaked out by how much shit I had on my laptop. I just deleted everything. Wow. And just from my phone. Damn. Just was like, I got to start afresh. And like two weeks later. Did you regret it at all?

No, not at all. Because I can’t remember anything. Yeah. Yeah. That’s the other. Like I was like, what would I? How long are you going to keep it for? Yeah. Dude. Yeah. I mean, it costs. No, it actually literally does cost me money to keep. But like. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it’s funny. I always feel like I’m going to find some use for this stuff. But it’s most of those photos that I’m talking about.

And there’s a lot of photos there. Most of them are like. It’s just for me to see that like I learned how to take a photograph. And like. I only feel like I started like. I really got there in the last couple of years or so. You know. Which is funny. Because so it’s just like a sort of. It’s like. It’s like seeing your old notes from high school.

It’s like. It’s a funny feeling though, isn’t it? It’s a funny feeling. I don’t need this stuff anymore. It can be. Yeah. I get the throw out. Yeah. It’s so nice. Yeah. But you know. Photos of like a party, for example. Are like precious. Because it’s like. Yeah. Socially. That social document is like. Yeah. Super cool. You know. But me like in the backyard trying to take a photo of a bee.

Like. Like no one wants to see that. You know. 20 years from now. But then. This is what I’ve been doing is taking all of that stuff. Yeah. Because it’s like. And printing it out. Yeah. Because it has to have. It has to have a purpose. Otherwise. Yes. Cool. I’m finding it. Yeah. Like I did that all day yesterday. It was like going through.

Thing. My phone. And transferring everything to Photoshop. And printing it out. Yeah. Wow. And painting on it. Just to make. Just to give it. Like kind of almost. I don’t know. I don’t know how to describe it. But almost making these like albums. Yeah. That are like. Changed. I don’t. I don’t know.

I don’t know what I’m saying. My brain’s a bit from. Yeah. No. Us too. Yeah. This is what my. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All the like. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Spinning of images. Yes. Yeah. Talking about disorganization. And being disorganized. Yes. And talking about the chaos of imagery.

Yeah. Is. Is tricky. It really. Very tricky. Yeah. It’s a big ask. Do you. Do you print at work. At home. Or like. Oh yeah. Actually. Yeah. Do you ever like. Get to use stuff for UTS. For stuff like that. Yeah. I mean. Just wherever I can. I’m like. Yeah. Just whatever’s available. Yeah. No. I mean. I have a really.

I work with a really wonderful printer. Vasili Callerman. I’ve heard the name before. Sorry. I said the wrong person. Oh shit. That’s Vasili.

Beep. Beep. Beep that one. Timestamp. Timestamp. Yeah. I got you. Timestamp. Yeah.

Not that one. But I work with Deep House Printing. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Do you actually want me to beep that? Because I can. Yeah. You can cut it. Okay. I’ll beep it. Yeah. Oh no. You can leave it in. It’s fine. It’s not a bad thing. That’s just like. I did that thing where I’ve just referred to my friend as someone else. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Totally.

But Vasili from Deep House Printing and Univin Press. Yeah. Yeah. He’s amazing. Cool. He’s very supportive. He gives me lots of paper to paint on. Yeah. Cool. All the scraps. Nice. You know. There’s so many paper scraps going through to me. Oh. Oh. Oh. Like the photo backdrops. I used to have a whole like. That whole corner was filled with old photo.

Like you know those paper rolls. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah. I just. I ended up throwing most of them out. Because it’s like. I couldn’t go through it fast enough. That’s the thing. It’s such amazing paper. And like. People throw out like. Tons of it. Yeah. But it’s like. Playing with it like a material. You know. That’s what I really love. Yeah. The direct painting. Yeah. And seeing how it reacts.

Yeah. Different things. Sure. Yeah. And that’s. Yeah. You know. That’s the material I’m used to. Yeah. But I would say like. Finding a. So. Finding any person to work with. Who’s. Who really loves what they do. Yeah. Is like the key. It’s like finding a good hairdresser. You know. Yes. You just hope they never leave. Yeah. Totally.

Totally. Yeah. I know what you mean. Or good like. Yeah. Dentist or something. Yeah. Yeah. Like my whole practice would change. If Vasily was to. Wow. Just up and leave. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I guess I have to do something else now. Yeah. That’s cool. That looks a little shit. Like he will make me. Be like. Oh. We can just print this out. It’s good enough. He’s like. Nah. Mate. Yeah.

This is terrible. I love it. 100k JPEG. I love it. Yeah. It’s like a. It’s like an editor. Almost. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. A great editor. Yeah. Which is really so important. Yeah. And yeah. But I think we should have more ways of. Having that sort of collaboration. Not just like a crit. Yeah. But yeah. I think like doing stuff with people in a sense is really.

Yeah. I really enjoy it. Yeah. But yeah. It’s interesting to think about some different ways that that collaboration. Could. That’s the thing. Be. Like. Yeah. Like yeah. I haven’t done much of it. I mean editor and writer is a very like traditional one. It’s true. But like yeah. Yeah. When I wrote my masters it was like the.

I was like. Oh right. It’s not me writing this alone. It’s like me and two other people writing with me. And they’ve got a. They’ve got a real deep interest in this work. Yeah. And they. They shape. They shape this maybe more so than I did. Maybe. Yeah. Yeah. I mean it’s like you sort of.

You’re giving the impetus though. Like. Yeah. Yeah. But that’s. Yeah. That’s a good point that like. To sort of curb that like. Extent of your actions like that. That’s cool. Because you know like. Have you. You know a lot of people who do like postgrad. They really struggle. Yeah. And it’s like. Oh. Yeah. Did you like listen to. Did you take. Did you take the feedback on. Yeah. And then if they.

They’re like. No. They. They told me to change this. Yeah. Like change it. Yeah. I know. Yeah. Like just see. Or just. Tell me about it. Yeah. They get really upset. That’s a fucking hard one. Like taking criticism like that. Yes. Yes. I found it like. So. Fun. I found it like. You like it. Oh my god. I was like. Please just tell me.

Yeah. Cool. Yeah. That’s cool. Yeah. Yeah.

Going back to an old piece of writing. Like I read a poem that I wrote two years ago. A couple of days ago. And I just felt like I could like immediately see it. Like in terms like you can just see all of its bad parts. But I think I’ve been. Always been pretty good at not feeling that attached to that. Like even if it’s bad. Yeah. And I also think like.

You know. With the right type of editor. I think I could really enjoy that process. But yeah. It’s. I have heard a lot of stories about people. That like. Like it’s probably not the norm to be able to take. Criticism about your deepest. Most important. Like artwork feelings. And like not. Like kind of. React badly.

It’s really. Yeah. It’s interesting. I’m like. I don’t know. I’m just like. Okay. That’s just like. It’s nothing personal. It’s like. They’re just doing their job. It’s like this. The artwork is out there. And we’re both making it better. Yeah. That’s beautiful. If you can get there. Yeah. Totally. Yeah. That is very zen. Yeah. I like that. Yeah. I mean. Yeah. When I was doing my masters. I was so relaxed.

I thought I must have fucked up. I live a lot of my life like that. I know. It’s like. Why aren’t I more nervous about tomorrow? Like. I should be. Like. That’s the thing. Yeah. Like. This. From. From. From everything I’ve been told. This should be horrific. Yeah. But.

And people. Don’t. People. I don’t know. It’s like. What’s expected. To freak out. Have a breakdown. But. It’s interesting. And yeah. You were saying you never did. Like an undergrad arts. No. I did. I didn’t finish high school. So. I had to. I had my. Art career. And then. UTS.

Was like. Hey. Do you want to come teach here? Like. Wow. In 2015. I was like. Yeah. I was like. Do you guys know I don’t have a degree? I was like. Hey. So. I’d love to. But. And so. Then. They said. I could come. To UTS. And do like. Half the undergrad. Wow. Cool. So. So. I got like. Prior learning.

Is that what it’s called? Yeah. Yeah. For sure. You got an honorary bachelor. Like. Yeah. Like. Like. You know. Like. Like the Yahoo. Serious. Like. Honorary PhD. From Newcastle Uni. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. But I got. I got half of it. Yeah. And then I did honors. And then. Just like. Then I did my masters.

Sick. Yeah. Just recently. All recently. Right. Right. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That sounds like a lot of fun doing like. Yeah. Sort of. A very closely supervised masters. Like. It’s something that you’re passionate about. And everyone’s kind of on the same page. Yeah. Yeah. It does sound great. Sounds like a lot of fun. Yeah. I see a lot of people. I don’t know. Moving towns. Or going to do a masters.

And it’s like. Yeah. You get why. Because it looks like a lot of fun. 100%. Yeah. Yeah. It is. It’s such a luxury. It’s like. You get to do this project on yourself. Yeah. Literally. And you know. If you can often get a scholarship. Yeah. And just sit around for a few days a week. Just writing about yourself.

Yeah. And what you with. Or like making sense of everything you’ve made. Crazy. Yeah. Crazy. Sounds indulgent. It’s so indulgent. Yeah. And you’re like. It’s the juiciest. Yeah. A friend of mine describes her PhD as like being orgasmic. She just loved it. Wow. Totally. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. A lot of people in like the sort of sciences end.

Like don’t want to admit that. I think. Yeah. It’s such a luxury. Yeah. Especially here. They’re like. Hey. We’re going to give you this money tax free. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Right about yourself. Yeah. Fuck. Tell us. Great deal. Yeah. It’s like the old Medici fucking contract. Yeah. That’s a really chill deal.

Yeah. Go for militaristic stuff. Go make a ton of work. Talk about yourself and try to figure out why you did all of it. Yeah. That sounds. Yeah. Everyone makes that. You’re selling it to me. I don’t want to go do that. Oh. I’ll. I’m really. I’m like the military, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Recruiter. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. True. I’ll sign you up.

Sitting in the back of the like youth like. Yeah. Trying to get the kids off to high school. Well. Also because they don’t tell you at uni. That this is a possibility. No. That these are. Yeah. I mean you’re aware of it but you’re not. Yeah. You don’t know of the structure. They don’t tell you anything at uni. No. They make it seem like. Hey wait a minute. They really make it seem like you’re going to have to fill out like 50 forms.

Yeah. In a row. And you’re like. True. I probably don’t want to fill out. True. Like. Too many forms. Yeah. So I probably won’t do it. Like. That’s me applying for a grant. I get like. I never make it through to the end. I just always. I was like. I’ll just spend my own money. We were talking about this the other day in the car. It’s like. I won’t say who. But I was like. Oh. That’s grant music. Oh. That’s grant like visual art.

You know what I mean? Oh. Yeah. And it’s like. You do get into this cycle where it’s like. Because I did one grant. Like. I’m accepted for the next one. And like. Because I did those two. I get a bigger one next time. Yeah. Kind of thing. The algorithm of grants. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. You’re like. Oh yeah. Yeah. Same with fucking everything though. Right. Like. Like. Every time I open a fucking poetry book. Like.

There’s a few old heads that I’m like. You’re in every journal. Yeah. Yeah. John Kinsella. You were in every. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like. Like. Yeah. You know. I mean. But it’s like that for. Don’t fix it. Right. I say. If you get the grant train going. Keep it going. Keep it going. Yeah. Fuck it. Go. But don’t get trapped. That’s the thing. People are trapped in grant cycles.

Yeah. Because it’s like. That’s the scary thing. I’m always like. I’ll just save. I’ll just save my own money and do it. Yeah. I love that idea. Because. You know what. That’s what Drew Connor said to us as well. Yeah. He was like. Fuck. Like. Having any. Like. You know. Outside influence in this. Yeah. Even if it just. Even if on paper there’s none. Yeah. He’s like.

I’m just going to do my own. Yeah. It’s exactly. It’s. He’s. He’s right. Yeah. It’s. There. There’s this thing about like. Okay. So you didn’t get the $10,000 from was code. Yeah. Just do it anyway. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. True. But yeah. The type of conviction and confidence and. Like. You know.

That is. Like. Being able to just do it. Requires. Yeah. Yeah. Like. In either case. I’m not saying. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But like. Sometimes like an institutional support might feel like. Yeah. Some kind of safety wheels. Or something. I can imagine. You know. Yeah. Because like. Even a fucking masters. Like.

You could kind of do it. In some ways yourself. You could just save up. Take the two years off. And just. It’s true. And then you just got to tell. Like. People aren’t. Like. I don’t know. Yeah. It’s like quite comfy to be like. I’m doing a masters. I’m going to France to do. Yeah. It’s some. Yeah. You know. It’s in the biggest social. Yeah. It’s like. I’m just like. Making coffee two days. Two days a week. And doing my own masters.

Yeah. For like two years. Yeah. But you know. You’ve got the community as well. The masters. Is interesting. Because. You’re. You’re like. You really have to prepare. Or any type of postgrad. You really just have to be like. Okay. I’m doing this project. This project is just. It’s like. I treat it like I got a grant. Yeah. Which you did.

Yeah. Yeah. And I’m just. It’s a one off. Yeah. And I’m going to do this. And I’m going to just do it in this direction. And that’s going to be the end. Yeah. And. It’ll have other meanings. That mean more to me. Than what I’m writing about. That I can’t ever possibly. Yeah. Ever describe. So I’ll just keep that. Keep that to myself.

Cool. So that it’s mine. And then. The other stuff that I’ve covered. Yeah. Which described the work. That have been guided. That my supervisors helped guide. Yeah. Also true. Yeah. But also. You know. Does that make sense? Am I getting too. No. That makes it. I like it. It’s like. It’s like a very. Like. Sensible way to go about it.

You know. Yeah. Because like. A lot of people. Like. Get given the. You know. The. I don’t know. It’s like this sort of. You’re given this sort of opportunity. To express like. And it can be a very broad. Range of things. Even if it’s just in writing. And it’s like. No. You don’t have to. Do all of that. Like. Just fulfill the requirements. And have fun.

You know. And like. Get what you can out of it. But it doesn’t have to like. You don’t have to follow up. On every single. No. Instinct. Yeah. Even though it’s good. That you’re having those instincts. I know. Yeah. Because. It’s. Fuck. There’s. Yeah. I mean. It could go in. Yeah. I’m sure there’s. Heaps of unfinished. Theses. Yeah. Theses.

Most probably. Yeah. But it’s weird as well. Because you write a paper like that. You know. And they were like. It has to be between. 12. 10. 12 to. Was it 10 to 12,000 words. I was like. That’s the most amount of words. That anyone’s ever written. I’ve never heard of that. I could. I could never possibly do that. And then suddenly. It’s like. I wrote.

20. 25,000 words. And they’re like. Why don’t you just do a PhD. Yeah. 10,000 more words. And I was like. And. And your. And then. The next day. I remember after I submitted. Someone was like. I had a meeting. And they were like. Oh. What was your. What was your masters? And I was like. I can’t. I don’t fucking know. I have no memory. I can’t even remember what it’s called.

And then you read it back a few years later. And you’re like. What? Who wrote this? This is. Who is this genius? I can’t write. Like. I don’t know how to. That’s very cool. I don’t know how to do that. I like that. Yeah. That’s a nice feeling. Yeah. Give me some of that one. But like. How? Like. That’s the thing. I was like. Why can’t I just. Why is. Why is my brain not like that?

You’re absolutely living in it. You do have to keep your brain in that academic mode. Yeah. You can’t just like. Snap back into it. I know exactly what you mean. I read some of my old shit. And I’m like. Damn. I was really like. Yeah. Really feeling myself. Yeah. I was a genius in that month. Yeah. Sick. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. There’s a couple of like alternative MFAs around.

Which are cool. I don’t think in Australia. But there’s like one in London. And one in like Margate. Like. Yeah. In a seaside town. Yeah. Where it’s kind of like. Just a bunch of artists and teachers. Like. And it’s an MFA. Great. I’ve got a space. Sort of an indie. Like DIY. Yeah. Which I think is like. Stuff like that’s pretty cool. The one in Margate is very sweet. It’s like this little piddly seaside town in the UK.

And they get like. That is the word. I think they get like 20 people. Is that where Tracy Ammon went? Is it. Is it official school? Or is it. No. Oh right. I’m not sure. It’s called something. Open School East it’s called. Oh right. But I know like. The YBAs and stuff. Had some kind of connection. And they’ve got a fucking big gallery.

I think. A Turner Gallery and shit. Or a gallery named after Turner. Which is pretty cool. But yeah. You like go there. As a little cohort. Like post uni. Or you never went to uni. And you like make work together. And it’s really like. Connected with the town. But it’s just like. It’s. It’s you know. It’s got.

It’s not an institution. How juicy. No government. It sounds like a lot of fun. Involvement. Yeah. Floated with the idea of doing that here. Yeah. But it’s like. I’ve heard of rumors of people trying to start that. But I can’t imagine. And I’ve been to stuff like that. Which was like. I’ve done a bit of philosophy stuff. Where it was just like. Literally lecturers from. A bunch of the cool unis.

Like Goldsmiths and stuff. That are like. We want to teach. You know. Like we’re not done. We’re going to rent a room. And I want to teach. Like whatever I want to teach. And like. I want to teach some stuff. That I probably like. Maybe can’t teach. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. And like. I feel like a little bit like. You know. Love it. Yeah. And I really am into like. Pedagogy. And teaching stuff. And I always.

Cry about it. I always feel like. Since like. The fucking day I was born. Like my schooling was. Shitty. Like. Yes. And I just want it to be better. So deep. Like so. That’s the thing. But I don’t know how to fix it. I got to read a book or something. Yeah. Did you ever have any of that stuff. Like as a teacher. Like. Those feelings. Like. How do I teach. And like. Can I teach well.

Or what does it mean for me to be a teacher. Or you just. All the time. I think like. I’m hyper aware. By how bad I was taught. And the way that people have taught. Or have spoken to me. That I need. I need to make sure that I don’t feel like I’m controlling the students.

Or making them. Or turn into. Something that I want them to be. Do you ever see that movie Educating Reader. Which was a play. No. And it’s got like Michael Caine. And this woman whose name I’ve forgotten. And it’s like. About like. So before I studied.

I watched it like four times in a row. Because it’s about. You know. Middle-aged woman. Who like. Goes to Oxford. And she’s from like. Working class background. Sounds like My Fair Lady. Yeah. Basically it is. Michael Caine. And Michael Caine’s her like teacher. While she goes to Oxford to study. And then. He’s like.

Turns out she’s really into it. Even though she’s got this like. Yeah. Cockney accent. Yeah. And it’s really beautiful. I love it. Set over a summer school. Educating Reader. This sounds great. It’s so good. It’s on YouTube. Write it down. Yeah. Write it down. Yeah. Really really beautiful. And of course you know. I won’t ruin it.

But you know. You know. Old man educates a woman. Nice. Yeah. Sounds good. We’re coming up on our. He’s actually quite young. On our government allotted. Hour and something minutes of. Yeah. Wow. Cultural education time. Already. So we might have to. Educated. We might have to call it there folks.

Jesus.

It has been so lovely to talk to you. Thank you. Is there anything that you would like. Our listeners to know. You got any shows coming up. Any works for sale. Anything that you want us to know. I have a ton of works for sale. Still. And how. How people are going to find that. They can message me. On Samuel Hodge.

Gmail.com. Or just Instagram. Or whatever. Yep. We’ll put your Instagrams. In the. Oh yeah. Thing. And no shows. I’m going to Paris. In two weeks. To do a residency. That’s cool. Yeah. I’ll get the. I’ll get the opening ceremony. Yeah. Hell yeah. Yeah. That’s cool. Or the Olympics. Extremely exciting.

Yeah. Can’t wait to. Try to get around Paris. Yeah. On the metro. Yeah. With fucking. Crammed with. Yeah. People from all over the world. Yeah. That actually sounds. I miss Paris. Yeah. It does sound fun. Yeah. Have a camera on you for those bits. Yeah. This is my phone. Yeah. Nice. Yeah. Yeah. And how long are you there for? Two months. Cool.

Yeah. Cool. And are you going to come back and like. You know. Speak French. And complain about the food. And stuff. None. None. That sounds good. That’s beautiful. On sack. Cool. So I can remember. On sack. Can you speak French? A little bit. On per.

On per. Yeah. Fucking France. All right. That’s it. That’s a wrap. Thank you so much, Sam. Thank you. Lovely to meet you. Yeah. And to the listeners. Just tell a friend about the pod. Tell one friend. One friend. Beg. Get on the ground and gruffle. Yeah. Please. Please. You got to listen. It’s so funny. Tell your friends.

Yeah. Do that thing where you’re like. Wait. No. Shh. This is the best bit. And then like. Watch their face. Watch their expressions intently. While you play it in the car. Yeah. And if they don’t laugh. Kick them out of the car. And it’s like an ad. Right. Matt and I were talking about ads. You got like the first. Yeah. First time you see an ad. Yeah. That’s the first time you tell them. You ignore it. Yeah. You ignore it. Yeah.

And then you have to come back a week later. That’s right. And then your most interested friends. Yeah. Tell them like two more times. Yeah. That’s how you correctly. And now we have a listener. Okay. Disseminate the good message of the show. That’s. Yeah. That’s fair. And now we’re going to go offline and bitch about a ton of people. Oh yeah. Totally. Now the Patreon recording starts. Now the real show starts. So just message us if you’re interested in our Patreon.

Yeah. Because we don’t have one. But just send us a message like where can I send the money. And how much would you pay? Yeah. And how much you would pay. Because we’re sick of going to work. And we just want to talk for a living. I love this setup. Bye everyone. Bye.

Show notes

Art school anxiety; Paintings in casinos; Michael Reid Art Bar; We Remember the Art spaces of yester-year; How to be a good Art teacher; And a Zen Koan -- To really begin the work, you must give up.  IG : @samuelhodge_