2.5 Rich Parents? You're Cancelled!

Transcript

Hey, I’m Matt. What’s up? I’m Aiden. Welcome to Hung Up. This episode is about privilege and Sydney.

Okay, so some of you guys are cancelled for having rich parents and you’re about to find out why. Basically, we’re saying if you have more than a certain amount of parental income, you’re banned from making art. That’s the rule. It’s just, it’s the only way to keep it fair.

We’re introducing means testing, right? This is what we were saying before the episode. You need to declare your income and your state of affairs before you’re even allowed to touch a paintbrush. Yeah, there will actually be a form that you can fill out and it’s actually, it’s a very easy form. You can do it online now. So we’re actually going to make it very easy for you. But unfortunately, what it does mean is that if your parents earn a combined income of over 150 grand a year, you’re disqualified.

I’m sorry, you’re gonna have to start a blog or something instead. You can’t even listen to this podcast, dude. Yeah, true. You only want tough, gritty, hard yakka, like fucking true blue working class kids listening to this podcast. It’s true. We need people who have to steal in order to eat. You have to have felt the grind, dude.

Like you, like what did you do today, right? You fucking drove a truck today. I fucking drove a fucking van, dude. You’re on the trucks. I’m on the fucking tools all day. No, I’m not on the tools. I’m in the van all day, dude. You’re in the van, sweating, your ass is sweaty. And you’re fucking delivering packages to rich people who don’t even look you in the eyes.

They can’t bear to look you in the eyes, dude. I’m too real. I’m too fucking real, dude.

They see you and it’s just, it’s too much to handle. And I get that. Like I’m on the other side. I had this like proper West, Western Sydney plumber come today to like fix my shower because it broke. And he’s really funny. Just called me like super late last night, like breathlessly at nine o’clock. Like fucking I’m coming to fix your shower, like eight o’clock. I’m like, yeah, dude, come whenever.

He’s like, all right, I’ll see you. And then I guess I felt that thing because I was like working my big fancy pants job. And he was there doing his, doing his thing, doing his authentic tradie thing. And then I got to have a lovely warm shower just before this. So thanks, dude. Thanks, Danny. You’re fucking the plumbing at your house is,

has been adding a couple of points in your favor to the troubled artist column. Maybe you shouldn’t have let him in. Yeah, I don’t know. It feels good though. Like it feels good to fucking fix your own plumbing. Like there is something to it aside from if it’s your job and you have to do it every day. Like there is definitely something to like, if you become too disconnected from the everyday shit,

like picking up your groceries or fixing your tap, it does do something weird to you. And I think that is one of the things that makes us skeptical about rich people is that they have the ability to alienate themselves from, you know, like many worldly processes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

The kind of like domestic reality that 90% of people sort of have to face. Yes. Every day. Yes. Yeah, it’s true. I mean, I’ve been thinking a lot about food delivery stuff. Like I did a story the other day on the Instagram and it was just like Uber culture. And there was like an ad on the Google homepage for a new type of doorbell, which is such a funny, like, like just perfect invention.

You know, it’s like a Google supported doorbell. I think it’s called Nest. And it’s just like, you know, you, you’re, I don’t know how much it costs. Let’s check. I think it’s like 300, 400 bucks. Yeah. So you buy this like $400 thing and it’s not really like for you to use. It’s, it’s to like smooth and like, it’s to smooth out the interaction with you and your like service worker assigned to you for that moment.

Like, yeah. Yeah. So funny. Like, um, it’s sort of, it just, it just matches the, um, the kind of like the pantomime we’ve been doing up till now. And like, also it just sort of matches the state of like, you know, the world we live in. And yeah, I sort of, I think about food deliveries while I’m driving food around to people. I don’t drive like meals around. I drive like meat around to people.

Um, and yeah, it is like, like fancy pants, like nice butchery meat. Um, but still it’s sort of, I feel like weird about, you know, like seeing Uber drivers now, like I’m not, I’m, I’m again, I’m not like, you know, I’ve got a good job and like, you know, it’s, it feels very fair, but I think I have like a little bit of an insight into like how those guys feel, you know, like you, you rock up to like dozens and dozens of houses and people just like fucking treat you like a dog.

Yeah. Like, yeah, yeah. Put it there, dude. Put it down. Don’t look me in the eye. And like, it just, it just that, that like disconnect, that alienation that you were just saying, like, yeah, it feels wrong, man. I don’t know. Like, you know, I think like, there’s just something so simple and pure and beautiful and like, yeah, I’ll use it. I’ll say the word. It’s something also authentic about like, you know, making your own shit.

For sure. For sure. Agreed. Yeah. Not to mention all the, like, whatever, like the wage, you know, staff and like working conditions stuff, like even outside of that stuff. I guess, yeah, I think this conversation can go in a lot of different ways. And I think the reason it’s such a like juicy and scary and like emotionally loaded topic is like, it’s so complicated.

Like when you start to like talk in the abstract or individuals or systemic problems, or you think about, you know, you know, cooking for yourself as one example versus getting delivery food. And like any one instance, you know, can be beautiful or, you know, it can be feel very amazing to get food delivered to you. And it can feel very, you know, you won’t feel any guilt and it can be like a beautiful moment with your roommate or your partner or whatever.

But I guess just like all of life, like under this kind of, you know, contemporary brutal capitalism, kind of we’re all a bit fucked by the same thing. Like I was just thinking about like, you know, this idea that it’s very, very nice to make your own food. And, you know, you think about like many traditional cultures or more like remote cultures where like, you know, you’ve got all this time to be like making bread and or you make all this time.

But like kind of ironically, like in our culture, like in Australia at this time, like a lot of that stuff, like cooking nice things for yourself is the domain of like the uber wealthy or like, or at least like, you know, a certain type of professional or a certain type of class.

Yeah, sure. I mean, like that, that, that’s kind of not to mention like a whole bunch of cool, like ethnicity based cooking or whatever you want to call it, like interesting cultural cooking going on. Like anytime you leave the inner West or whatever. Dude, when I walk, like my roommate and I go walk around Ashfield and it’s fucking amazing.

Like it’s the best food you can, like, it just smells crazy. I don’t even know what’s going on, but it just like beautiful Indian food and Asian food. And it’s just like, I just want to be in those houses so, so much. Like I want to taste it. And it’s like this whole fucking thing at like five o’clock in the afternoon here. You just get off like Liverpool road and down some of the back streets and it’s just, it’s crazy.

Like it’s feels, yeah, I can’t even describe it. Like it feels very like personal and special to be there. But like at the same time, like you only ever get to experience it like as a white middle class guy with an art podcast. Like I’m always experiencing it through like the curtain. Through the nose. Yeah, through the nose and through like the break in the curtain.

And I get like a peek in as I’m walking by. You don’t even get to look at it, dude. Yeah. You don’t get to look at it. Although you might be able to taste it if you go through these fucking gray market marketplace pickles that we’ve been talking about. Yeah. This is a cool, actually, we didn’t even talk about this before, but like this is like a really cool. I don’t know if you, um, listener have been like, um, on marketplace, uh, Facebook marketplace much recently.

And in fact, this isn’t a recent thing. This has been going on for a while, but, um, Aiden pointed it out to me again recently. It’s like people, um, in like Sydney, people out in the suburbs of Sydney, like making meals to sell on Facebook marketplace. And they look delicious. You know, like, can you give, can you like, do you have any remembered that you can just tell us now?

Yeah. There’s like some, some beautiful pickles, like lots of like cool, like specific types of like Indian pickles. And I saw one, which was pretty wild, which was like a pickled meat, which is pretty hectic. And then like, yeah, biryanis one came to mind, which was just this, all these beautiful like, uh, Thai dishes. And like the whole post was just in Thai.

And there was some link to like, I don’t think it was like a WeChat, but like one of those things, like some kind of like specific cultural, like social network thing. Yeah. That like, you’ve got to be in the know to, to know about. But yeah, there was a bunch of it. And I was just like, I think just like kind of zoning out to marketplace.

Just, it’s kind of like, I do like a little bit of like, I don’t know what you would call it, like traveling in my neighborhood. Cause you set the location to like two K’s or five K’s and you just like see what people are giving away or selling. And it’s like, it’s a little bit like the street library or like looking at someone’s bookshelf is just like, cool. I just get like, I guess get to see what’s going on.

And there’s not really any other way for me to have access to like the private lives of my neighbors. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. That’s, that’s, that’s, that’s cool. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting how, um, these like platforms like sort of unfold the home. It’s really nice. Um, cool. Yeah. So just to summarize, we’re all fucked by the same dick of late capitalism.

Yeah. To some extent, like either, you know, either you’re like to, if we’re going to like be reductive about it, either you’re like soulless and you have too much money and like you fucking treat Uber drivers like shit or like, you know, you can’t get a house and your kids are hungry and like, you don’t have time to make art or even think about it.

Yes. Um, yeah. Or you’re the Uber driver who like, yeah, just really, it just kind of cannot even climb out of this fucking, like I told you about this time, the Uber driver like messed up my pizza and then came to my door and was like freaking out. Like he was super stressed and he was like, bro, you got to order another pizza. Like, please.

Yeah. Like, otherwise, whatever, like, you know, I guess he’ll get fired. Like, and that’s not the type of precarity that you or I feel at all. Like, you know, even when I feel like I’m getting fucked by my boss or you’re getting looked at like a piece of shit. Like we know like in like very strongly that like we’re comfortable and like, even if the worst thing was to happen and we lose our job, like we have some savings and we have a parental safety net.

And I just think there’s like, there really is like when we talk about precarity, there is a baseline level that you need. And then like the conversation changes once you get past that baseline. Right. Totally. Totally. Yeah. Like when you’re, when you’re not actually worried about like, you know, making rent, you’re in a different category.

You might, may very much still be working class, but it’s a different type of thing. Like. There’s that famous threshold of like, I think it was 60,000. I don’t know if it was US dollars a year, but above a certain, you know, pay rate. You just, you just, you feel, you know, the, uh, the more like, um, the smaller things like start to bother you, you know, like rather than like, where am I going to get my fucking paycheck?

Like, where am I going to feed my kids? And that’s significant. Right. Cause yeah, we wanted to kind of go into like, when we talked about privilege, like, I guess something I was interested in is like the preconditions for even beginning to pursue an artistic career. And if you come from a background, like a really precarious background where you’ve seen your parents, you know, stress about, you know, getting you clothed or stuff like that.

I imagine it would be quite difficult to take on an arts degree. Like there’s a certain amount of psych psychological comfort that you need to be able to project for yourself to take on a three year degree and 30 K of debt and not really care. Like that opportunity cost isn’t unimaginable for you.

Sure. Yeah. And that’s not to say it hasn’t been done, but it’s, it’s like, uh, you know, I’m sure we could find a pretty clear pattern that like, you know, the kind of people that like get into arts degrees, like, you know, maybe need to worry less about that stuff. Yes. And, and maybe, maybe that’s why, um, that’s one reason we kind of, uh, tend to think it’s cool when, um, you know, we hear, yeah, like this artist was just like, he was just painting houses.

Like, you know, he was a tradie and then like, you know, now like he’s fucking exhibiting at the art gallery of New South Wales or whatever. Like, you know, we like that story. Cause it’s like, yeah, maybe we didn’t really talk about this before, but like, yeah, maybe it’s like, there’s some kind of, um, element of like, yeah, that’s brave. You know, it’s risky. Like, for sure. Um, definitely.

If you failed, it’s like, you know, what, like what, what, what could happen if you failed or like, what does that, what does failure look like for someone like that? Yes. It’s interesting.

Um, but yeah, I think, I think we can move on a little bit. Like, um, you shared this, uh, you, you ordered a zine from the white pube recently. Do you want to just like, um, give everyone a, an introduction to the white pube? If they don’t know about them already. And then maybe tell us about, um, the article that you picked out from this scene.

Yeah, for sure. So yeah, I’ll give a quick rundown. I feel like I’ve mentioned them before, but everyone should go follow them. It’s just like the white pube. Um, and it’s, uh, Zarina Muhammad and Gabriela Della Puente. Two young women in the UK, um, basically shook up the world of criticism.

Um, super like systemic critiques. So this zine that I got is called Ideas for a New Art World. And I think its original, like, uh, life was just as these like unexplained billboards. It was just like an idea. So the title of the, the little expanded billboard that I’ll read today is called Idea for people

across the creative industries need to declare if they have rich parents who help them get where they are today. So that was the original version of the scene. It was just like, you know, a sentence on a billboard with like their logo and like a puppy color. And they were like, um, they were like sort of paste up ads all over London, I think in the UK and this was kind of the culmination of what, like four years or something of like

really amazing Instagram game and like really cool critique, you know, criticism. Exactly. And it grew and stuff. And I guess one interesting thing that whenever I tell people about them, like one thing that like always gets a kind of like an interested reaction is that they have their books completely open. So you can like go to their website and you can see a spreadsheet and see exactly what they

got from Patreon, exactly what they get for a speaking engagement, you know, exactly what they get for a residency and you know, what they turned over in the last month. Yeah. That kind of, that kind of stuff really is like, yeah. Like what do you call that? Like, uh, putting your money where your mouth is, you know? Yeah. It’s righteous. It’s fucking cool.

Yeah. And it’s doing, yeah, yeah. It’s doing a really cool thing. Yeah. It’s kind of anti the sort of like whisper, like sort of capitalism, like don’t share your paycheck, you know, as in like, don’t, don’t tell people how much you get paid kind of thing. It’s like, and that is like one of the brutal truths of privilege is, you know, it’s, it’s,

it doesn’t, it’s too like naive to say that like, yeah, rich people make better art or only rich people have the capacity to make art. It just obviously not true. Um, when so many of like the artists that everyone loves, like famously come from tough backgrounds. Um, but definitely when we start talking about like, you know, things like understanding how

a system works, um, that stuff feels like, you know, that’s intentionally hidden behind, um, you know, these, these mazes and like gate kept. And sometimes it’s that access more than anything that is the hardest thing to overcome. Like how the fuck do I make a career in the arts?

And like that information is not available to you like it is for more traditional careers. Um, and like the more that that is kind of, yeah, kept behind walls and basically hoarded by certain individuals, like the more fucked things are. So yeah, I think that’s one of like the things that I really do agree.

Like I do really love about the white pew, but this point is that kind of, you know, blowing that stuff up. So cool. Yeah. Um, yeah. So this, this, um, essay is titled, um, people across the creative industries need to declare if they have rich parents who helped them get where they are today.

And this was kind of the, um, I think this was the catalyst for us for this episode talking about privilege in Sydney specifically. Um, do you, yeah. Do you want to just like, uh, maybe give an overview of this, um, essay and like, or even quote it directly? Yeah. I’ll just give it a quick summary and then I’ll, um, maybe just drop one of the quotes.

So basically it’s, um, I don’t know who wrote it. Uh, but basically, yeah, it’s there at the Barbican and they’re seeing this artwork and it’s a really fun artwork and by this artist, Eddie Peake. And what’s the work? It’s like there were performers in roller skates moving through the Crescent space, huge words

masked out on the wall, which had then been painted over in neon pink. And she says, yeah, I saw the work at a good time. I was deeply bored of sidestepping invisible route around the edges of painting and photography exhibitions. I was so over being silent in galleries, trying to look politely at the art whilst hyper aware there was some gallery woman sat at the desk staring at me as I went about my day.

I thought it’s good to know artists can have fun, that that’s something we’re allowed to do as well. And I think that’s beautiful and that’s fantastic. And then she goes on to say like a few months later, I learned that Eddie Peake’s mom was Phyllida Barlow, a big famous British artist with a Wikipedia page of her own. They lived in a nice big house and all the edge and coolness I’d enjoyed in her son’s

show evaporated. I don’t know if that’s fair, but that’s what I felt in my gut. Something felt off and I’ve been struggling with it ever since. I really think that’s like the heart of the piece. Yeah, totally. And I guess, you know, she kind of goes off on the thing I was talking about earlier, which is like, you know, who has access to the pathways and the kind of secret codes for

success. I’ll just read from the last two paragraphs. She says, the chasm gets deeper and more deplorable when rich kid artists make and present art that is shrouded in our aesthetics. I guess she’s referring to like working class aesthetics. They camouflage themselves to look like us, speak like us and feel like us so that we cannot see their class and privilege anymore.

So we do not think to threaten them. If you’re reading this and your career resembles something like back to back residencies or just free endless studio time because you have the money and network to live like that, you should say so. Everybody else is hurting.

Hmm. Yeah, cool. It’s such a it’s such a like, you know, challenging opinion. And that’s kind of why we sort of started out the episode like that. I think is because like, yeah, we want to sort of challenge ourselves and you like to think about this stuff. So let’s talk. Let’s talk about the inner West.

Now, let’s let’s let’s put a pin in that and and we’ll circle back around to privilege. But do you remember like what brought you to live in the inner West? When I met you, you were living in were you living in Newtown by then or were you still in Petersham? Yeah. So it was like and more. And then when we met, I would have been living in Petersham and then I moved to Newtown.

I was like my first house out of just tell me about moving to Newtown. I remember that. I remember this like atrocious share house above a shop on King Street. Yeah. Everyone hated that share house, but I loved it. Well, tell just tell us about why you moved to Newtown. Why the inner West? Well, I guess like it does kind of start before then because I grew up on the Gold Coast and

like, I don’t know, I just always wanted more and something more interesting. And I had a little taste of it. Like I had some like friends who are into like weird music and come to the school and it basically like I don’t know, changed my life in a big way. And I just wanted more of that. And like, I guess the Gold Coast is a lot like a lot of places in Australia where they

just feel like cultural wastelands, you know. And I hear this a lot when I hear people that have moved from like wherever regional Australia or the West or, you know, North Sydney. And they’re just like, I don’t feel good here. Like I’m not getting what I need. Like, and the inner West is just kind of like, yeah, considered like this haven.

It’s just like, that’s where you need to go. And I guess I remember like driving from the Gold Coast, like with our whole fucking house packed up to come to the inner West and live in that first shitty house in Enmore. And I remember seeing like, I was like 17 or whatever. And I remember seeing like my first fucking zany, mohawked, like yellow and black, knee

high striped sock dude, like probably at like on King Street. And like, it’s super cheesy. But like, I felt like, damn, like that’s a symbol of something that I wanted. Like that’s something that I had never really seen before in Queensland. Yeah.

Yeah. Do you feel at all intimidated by that? I don’t know. I like, it’s hard to remember the feeling. I remember feeling like excited and maybe it was a little bit scary as well. But I actually feel kind of lucky because a lot of the stuff that like a lot of people I found in Sydney have like about like postcodes and what high school you went to, there was

a little bit of like, like suburbanism to where I grew up. And I was just kind of oblivious to a lot of things like, like my folks are like working class. And they gave me like a reasonable, like lower middle class life. And I think they did a good job because I was pretty oblivious to like the relative wealth

of my peers in high school. And so it just never really came up for me. And it was only when I came to Sydney that I started noticing like people asking about like what school you went to or where you were from. I guess like there’s just so much more like, I don’t know, tribalism here than like the Gold Coast. Like the Gold Coast was like everyone was like the same.

Everyone thought they were like, you know, from a kind of shitty place. Like, you know. Yeah. So there wasn’t too much to like be mad proud of. But of course it was there. And then after like a year or two in Sydney, as I got older and reflected, I realized like a lot of the people I was at my private school with were fucking loaded.

Like I was like, why are they friends? Like, why are those two people friends? And I was like, oh, they’re fucking parents. Like, you know, they’re individual parents. They have the same amount of money. Exactly. I like tethering the kids together in the traditional way of, you know, what do you call it? Like nepotistic wealth building for generations to come. Conservation, yeah.

Yes. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, I guess like it was a bit of a shock to come to Sydney and feel like, you know, people seemed so much more interested in like, yeah, where you had come from and like, you know, what that signified about you from compared to what I was used to. Yeah. I remember being like, yeah, 19 and sort of moving to Marrickville.

And for the first four or five years after that, I remember like just about every weekend when I went out, especially if it was like, you know, a bit more of a conversational thing, not like at a gig, like a party or something. It was just every time it comes up, you meet someone and they’re like, oh, what school did you go to? Like often, often very innocently.

But like, yeah, people kind of, maybe people wanted to just fit you onto a totem pole, you know, it’s not the kind of thing people ask me or I ask people until it’s like, you know, months into the relationship now. Like, yeah, it’s like, I just don’t care. Or like, maybe I just, you know, yeah, I don’t know. I just don’t know. Intentionally avoid it or something.

I don’t know if I avoid it. Like, I don’t know. Yeah. Maybe I do. Maybe I don’t. I mean, I don’t really care. Like, you know. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Especially now that we’re a little bit older, I guess, like when we’re first year of uni, like everyone’s fucking 18 or whatever. It’s like everyone’s sorting each other into like, yeah. And you don’t really know what else to ask, I guess.

What about you? Like, I guess you have a different view and I can’t really place. I don’t still have like a horrible map of Sydney. I still don’t understand like what the class signifies of where people live. Like, I know the obvious ones, but like, yeah. Yeah. I don’t know. Why did you come here? Why did you go to Marekville? Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, our family, like my mom and dad and my sister and I moved here when I was

about nine and Zoe, my sister, was like seven, six. And they, like dad got a job here, you know. So, they were like middle class. Both of them were working full time for basically my whole life. Um, and we moved to the North Shore, which is like, yeah, it’s got this reputation for like

being fucking posh. And yeah, there is a lot of money there. You know, I, it’s funny. I actually had this moment, uh, every now and then in my like van at work and I’m like driving past the high school I went to just like a cool, like public school up there. And, um, it’s like, you know, 28 year old Matt drives past like 10 years later with like

a shaved head, like listening to music in a van. It’s just so funny to think like of all of our like career aspirations and our teachers pushing us in certain directions. And then I drive past in a van like 10, 10 years later. It’s just, it’s funny to me, you know? I like it. Um, and yeah, so by the time I was 18, I had pretty much like become like, I wasn’t fed

up with, um, the North Shore, but it was like, you know, just the only people I seem to be able to meet were like through this kind of North Shore high school network. And like, I just didn’t, I didn’t really care about, you know, any of the places up there other than the bush. And like, you know, um, once I started making friends in the inner West, it was like, I was

spending my whole time down here. And, you know, I just felt like I, I wanted to be a musician. So that’s where you got to go. And, you know, and anyway, like that was where all the fun parties were. So I moved out at 19 to Merrickville with some friends from high school and just kind of like, since then I’ve just been sort of expanding my appreciation for the area.

And also like, you know, I think I’ve, I’ve grown up a bit and I can see it for what it is. You know, I don’t think it’s quite so magical as it used to be, but I think I get a lot more pleasure in like smaller things. Like we’ve been talking a lot about street libraries the last six months. And I just think that’s such a cool thing. Not that it’s an inner West exclusive, but you know, just that kind of flavor of a neighborhood

is the kind of shit I’m into now. For sure. Um, so yeah, that’s, that’s where I’m at.

Um, yeah, so I guess there’s always this interesting kind of play with like privilege and what it actually means because I was just like thinking and reflecting about the time where I wrote the most. And it was like one of the times where I was the poorest, like now I’m working five days

earning the most I’ve earned and I’ve got less time for myself than ever. Like obviously. Uh, and at that time I was working part-time at a cafe earning shit. And I still felt like sharing a tiny room, but I still felt like, you know, I got to live this really, um, like life with a lot of time for me, a lot of time for my art and a lot

of time just to like be an artist in the world, like to walk around and go to galleries on Tuesday on an afternoon. And like, there’s nothing like stopping me from doing that now other than, you know, whatever, like career aspirations. But yeah, I guess I’m interested in like, it’s not just like, you don’t just, just having

a bunch of money doesn’t mean you’re, you have time to be an artist. It’s like the time you need to carve out for yourself to be an artist. And like on paper, a lot of people could do that if they chose to. Right. But yeah, I don’t know. I guess like you’re kind of working part-time now and you’ve lived that kind of classical

artist life for like a while. Like what do you, what do you kind of think about it? Um, yeah, like it’s, it’s, it’s kind of, um, something that I’ve done a lot of thinking about this year. Um, because yeah, I mean, I know a lot of artists, um, that do it too.

You know, um, I know a lot of people who like are also on the dole or whatever, who like maybe work one day a week or something. And like, it gives them, it just affords them so much time to work on their art. I mean, this, maybe this is just for me, but you know, I noticed that once I got this part-time job, I felt a bit more of an urgency to like make stuff.

You know, I think just the lockdown and support payments for that was, it didn’t really breed that much artistic inspiration, but like when I’m kind of, you know, a little bit busy, it helps. Um, that’s, you know, that’s, that’s just one thing. Anyway, we’re sort of talking about a couple of different like angles in terms of like wealth

stuff here. Um, because there are artists like, um, what was it? Eddie something in the article you said, uh, in the white pube article, who’s like, who it’s, it seems like their whole life has kind of been set up for it. Right. Like, like your, your, your mom and dad, like, you know, are artists and, and, and they’ve

got a studio and you can show it the studio kind of thing. There’s a lot of those in the inner West. And like, if those names get brought up, I see a lot of like hostility, questioning their authenticity, questioning whether they even want to be artists. Like that’s the first thing that happens when people are kind of, you know, less successful artists, they’re like drunk and really talking shit.

Like they let those people have it. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Yeah, totally. And like, you know, like whatever, we’re all entitled to our opinions. And like, I think we, I think we should always be suspicious of like, you know, authorities, especially in something like the art world, like, you know, um, but, but then I also think like, you know, um, if someone’s got all the free time in the world and, and they really

don’t have to worry about like, um, you know, don’t have to worry about working and like, you know, uh, the sort of like, although it’s beautiful, mundane, domestic, like things that we, that we’re constantly talking about. Um, and they still choose to do art. But it like, you know, it kind of like, it does sort of like, to me, um, yeah, I don’t

want to, I don’t want to give it too much credit, but like, you know, to me it is kind of a brand of authenticity. Like, you know, it’s like, yeah, I’m, I’m doing this anyway, despite like what you think about me. Like, you know, I know my mom and dad are rich, but like, whatever, fuck it. Like, you know, this is what I’m into. Like, that’s cool too. You know, that’s fine. Yeah. I like that. Yeah. I, yeah.

I completely agree. Yeah. I think like, um, there was this thing that we were talking about, um, before we started taping, which was like, you know, this kind of like, uh, and we sort of touched on it before actually, the kind of like, uh, the sort of psychic and, and very real, um, fiscal like risk that you have to take. You literally have to jump off of a cliff.

Sometimes it feels like when you’re like, I’m going to be an artist, fuck getting a full time job. I’m just going to like make my, I’m going to put my soul on this page or whatever. Um, and that is, that’s kind of where the rubber meets the road with this kind of privileged stuff is it’s like, you know, for example, in our notes, we were sort of just almost like

role playing different artists’ lives. And I was saying like, um, yeah, you’re, you’re born in like a, like a really poor working class family and your mom and dad are like heartbroken that you just want to run off and like fool around with art. You know what I mean? Like that was a scenario we were sort of playing out. Like, um, to them, it seems almost like, um, a betrayal, you know, it’s like, you could

have, uh, you could have lifted us out of this and your kids could have gone and like become lawyers, you know, if only you’d gotten the sort of the stepping stone generation. Um, and so I think that’s also like so brave to do, you know, that’s, that’s another thing that we think is so cool is like the, the risk, um, involved there to the person. Um, and we like, we like art that’s like, you know, you and I like art that’s tense and

risky, you know, we don’t really, we don’t really go for like pretty chilled out art that much. Yeah. Well, yeah, but yeah, I get your point. I get your point. I think, yeah, a bunch of interesting things you said, I guess like, I kind of disagree with the conclusion of the white pube article that, you know, I found out about the person

who made it and it sucked all the wind out of the work. Like, um, yeah, to me that feels a little bit like, uh, I don’t know who wrote it, but like, it feels like she was sort of expecting to get famous and then realizing that, oh, you can only get famous with money. You know, if it just feels like success, like a grand success was a premise like taken for

granted in that, that isn’t really printed on the page. Yeah. Yeah. Could be, I guess. Yeah. I don’t know. Like, I’m like, I’m always thinking about like, yeah, like the art experience above all else. And like the, the amazing thing that the white pube did was to like, or, and are doing is to like, you know, address this stuff that’s just silent, like the working conditions and

who gets to speak and who gets to make. And that’s so important. But I do feel like I’ll be reading something they’ve written and I’m just not like gassed about it. You know, it’s just like, I wonder whether the, you know, and they are super political, but I wonder whether like the, you know, if you’re too, not too political, but if that’s

the angle that is always going to be your first angle, the political angle, like who made this, how is it made? Who’s speaking? Like you’re always thinking about like, yeah, power dynamics and power relations. Yeah. And that comes before like the sense of like human, like wonder and the soul. And like, I am like, that’s what I love.

And I’ve spoken on before about, you know, this thing that feels transcendent about engaging with art that feel engaging with music. And I know that it like, potentially it’s like this like real privilege, like white priv like thing to, to want the artist to be neutral or to like not give a fuck about the person

who made it. But like at the end of the day, like I want to go to a gallery that I know is going to be representing like artists in a cool way. Like we just won’t go to the big galleries or the institutions because we’re aware that of the power structures that are like, you know, simmering underneath. So I want to go to a space or like read someone or like be curated by someone that I know cares

about this shit. Like if I was to go to like a show that the white pube like put on, like I would love that because I know they would have made those concerns. But once I’m in that space, I don’t really want to like look up people’s Instagrams or like look at photos of them or know heaps about their background. Like I really like take that space, like, you know, like spiritual and aesthetic sense to

engage with like the work itself. Like that’s the thing that’s beyond the person. That’s this really powerful communication. Like that’s the thing that’s so exciting. And it does feel a little bit like it can be kind of tight. Like it’s a bit, I don’t know, tacky when people obsess over the person who made it like

for better or worse, you know? Right. I mean, it’s like it’s almost like a gossip, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, that’s not really what we’re, it’s not the game that we’re, you know, into here. Right. I’m just never going to be motivated by like the person who made it because that’s not what I love about the connection I have with art.

That’s the most powerful to me. It’s not the human, like the real human behind it. And it’s like something that keeps coming up with poetry, which is like kind of frustrating is that like, I remember writing a poetry and like create a poem in like creative writing class. And it had like this character, like Honey Hirami.

She’s like a, like, I guess rugby player. And I think her like, she was like called like Honey Bill Williams. And in my poem, she like died in a plane crash for whatever reason. And I was like inhabiting something. And I remember like the people in the class being like mad that I had like killed this

woman. And I was like, nah, well, like you’re missing a point. I know I wrote it and I spoke it, but I’m not inhabiting. You know what I mean? It’s like, there’s a separation here. Yeah. Fuck. They should teach this on like day one at NASS and fucking SEA. It’s like, dude, if a fucking movie has Hitler in it or someone that looks like Hitler, they’re

not saying that they like, don’t like Jewish people. Right. Like, you know, the hard thing about a poem and especially when you bring it down to like, yeah, you can kind of make that distinction when it’s like a movie or something. But then you’ve got a poem that’s in one voice written by one person read by the person who wrote it. And it feels so, I guess it’s so close to like a human, like speech.

It’s so close to it feeling like it’s an opinion that like I aid and hold or whatever. Yeah. But yeah, I guess like, yeah, just really wanting to kind of take like a radical approach to like engaging with artworks. And like, I don’t want to be grounded in like the real world of like people and identities.

And like, I want the artwork to kind of like lift off and be this powerful thing. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. We’re, we’re alike in that sense. Like, you know, I, I, I love what you were saying about like, you know, we sort of find ourselves in situations where the curator happens to be fucking righteous and they’ve chosen

people that, you know, like have, yeah, exhibited works that, that just rock on their own. Yes. And then, you know, sometimes, sometimes you’ve got a rich mom, sometimes your dad’s a plumber, like, you know, whatever. Yes. Yes. I think that’s so cool. Yes. It would be such a shame. It’s such a shame to like, yeah, fucking obsess about like, yeah, where people came from.

Because yeah, like you were saying before, like if you have all the privilege in the world and you stack up all these rich people, like not many of them are making powerful art. Like the tendency is not to do cool shit with your time when you’re rich and privileged. But like you get to the point. I mean, that’s the funny thing is like, once you have a, like, you know, a no work kind

of type of money, like every force in capitalism is like, you know, moving you away from making stuff, you know, you’re, you’re a consumer primarily. Exactly. And like at best you can sort of make with your money, like you build a house or you like design a cool yacht or whatever. Yes. Yes. Yeah. I mean, and it’s also to say that like, I don’t know, for me, like when I’ve been writing

poetry recently, like, I don’t know. And it’d be interesting to hear what you think. Like, I know you’ve spoken to me about like, you know, whatever, like feeling kind of like lonely when you’re really young and like finding solace in like your art form. And I guess that’s a pretty common thing for people to get good at their art form, you

know, when they really fucking needed it. That, you know, you’re kind of able to like use your music as this kind of, I don’t know, like above all else, like it’s kind of there for you and you need it. Like, it seems like you need it. Right. Yeah. It feels like I need it. Yeah, totally. Yeah. I mean, yeah, there’s sort of like, I mean, I have a lot of thoughts on that.

But, but I think this touches on something that I think is important to add to this discussion, which is that like, there’s not just a dollar sign, like a dollar value privilege amount. Right. You know, some people, some people could have come from very wealthy backgrounds, but like

experienced incredibly traumatic childhoods, you know, I know a few people like that. And like, you know, people who came from, yeah, relatively poor backgrounds, but who have got an amazing support network and like awesome parents, you know, I think like just, just sort of for the people that do care enough to go and look like stalk the Instagram, the

artist’s Instagram and they’re like sussing out what clothes they’re wearing. It’s like, you know, that’s not the whole story. Right. Yes, of course. Um, yeah. And then I think just to like, go back to your point about, you know, having an artist having an art almost as like another node on that support network.

Like, I think that’s totally true. You know, um, for me anyway, it was like, you know, it was my friend when, when I didn’t have any friends or, I mean, I’ve always had some friends like, you know, but when I felt like they couldn’t understand me or something or I didn’t fit in. I guess. Yeah. There’s also something that you do that I don’t do, which I think is important when we talk

about like careers and professionalism and throwing yourself into something. Like if you take the career route, like it will give you something to, it will give, like it will impose itself upon you. Like the way like engineering has imposed itself upon me. Like I cannot help but integrate it into who I am because it’s taking so much of my, you

know, time and my best mental capacity. So I have no choice but to like, to love it and to find valuable things in it. Otherwise, like basically I die. Right. Or I, you know, those are my options. So I think there’s a very interesting decision, like what we were talking about in the start of the episode where, you know, you’re taking the risk of the arts degree or you’re taking

the risk and so many people like dabble. And I really don’t have a problem with dabblers. Like it’s fine. It’s good. It’s great. Like to have, to be a hobby artist and to explore that side of yourself, you know, on all the various like ends of the scale that you can take it. I think it’s lovely. But I think there is something different when you take the plunge, which like I was staring

down the barrel of and I was like, nah, I don’t want to, like, I don’t want to do this. And like you are in the middle of that still. Like you said, like, I want to do this. And I think there’s something special that happens to an artist and to a person when they take that full time plunge. Yeah. So I think, I think the year was like, I think the year was 2016.

I’m just not, I’m going to say it was 2017. And I start seeing on Instagram, like this post, it was one of those, uh, PSAs that could have been taken either as ironic or not. Right. You’ve seen this kind of shit, right? Yeah. And it was like, it had something to, it said something like this.

It was like, um, you’re appropriating working class Melbourne culture. We couldn’t afford to go to a hairdresser. So our moms gave us mullets. Yes. Right. What do you think about that? Do you think they were being serious or, or was that like part of the kind of like second fold? I don’t know.

I guess it’s like a cool, uniquely Aussie thing where like, I don’t know, like tradies and shit and like footie players, like they’re really sexy. Right. Like they’re just fucking hot. And so we watched a Baz Lenka with like mouths wide open on the fucking, at the grand final

on Saturday night. Yeah. And so like, I don’t know, there’s always been this link in like Aussie culture to this. And I think it is like a pretty masculine thing when I think of it. Like, I don’t think of too much like feminine examples of like, you know, this like sexy working class thing. But yeah, like for me, like, I don’t know, I’ve always kind of been like a little bit

in awe of that, like sexy, rugged Aussie masculinity. Like, I don’t know. And it’s, it’s just, it’s, it’s like too hot for like the middle class to keep away from. That’s my feeling. Like, it’s just like too sexy. Like the work boots and like the stubbies and then like the fucking now a big one is like

those like vintage, the vintage like NRL jerseys, you know, those ones. That’s such a fucking sick take, dude. Yeah. It is so sexy. Yeah. Yeah. You know, like the thick cotton for you, I think they used to wear them in like the 80s. Like a lot of people wearing like the blue and yellow for like para and like taking them in. And I guess like I played rugby league and me and my dad watched rugby league, but like

I’m pretty sure the guy at like Rising Sun doesn’t watch rugby league, but he’s like wearing the fucking jersey. Right. Right. Yeah. I used to feel like so upset about that stuff. You know, like I was like, you’re just drinking VB because you’re fucking like playing at being poor. Yeah. And like now I kind of don’t mind the taste of VB and like, you know, it’s just like a

decent cheap beer. Like it’s a local beer. I don’t know. Like. Like, it’s a local actually. Well, it’s from Melbourne, right? Yeah. But is it made in Melbourne? Oh, I don’t know. But like, yeah, fuck. I don’t know. This is one of those like weird knots that I don’t think you can actually answer. It just comes to a point of like, for me, it’s like you’re younger and you’re angrier

and you’re annoyed. And to be honest, like your brain isn’t fully developed. And then like when you get like past 25 and you get on, you start on this like, you know, sad, gradual curve into like, you know, less radical beliefs and less anger. And you’re just like, it doesn’t matter.

Like, I don’t give a fuck. Like, whatever. But I guess that’s also on the other hand, that’s one of the like beautiful things about fashion and always has been. Like fashion can kind of like do beautiful things with like beautiful, complex, untheorizable things about like, you know, can like, what does it do?

Like what’s that? It like withstands contradiction and is like beyond critique. And like, you know, you see someone doing something and it like, if it looks good, like it’s right. And you can’t really argue with that. So cool. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. It’s amazing. It’s a real, like the, the ends justify the means.

Yes. Like, yeah. And you just like, there’s nothing you can do. You can’t like theorize and like be political and say it’s wrong. If someone like just fucking is killing it, you know? Right. It’s, it’s, yeah. It’s, it’s, what did you say? Withstands contradiction. That’s so fucking true. I love that. Yeah.

Yeah. All right. Well, this episode has flown by. We’re already at what? An hour on my, on my end. Yeah. Um, yeah. All right. So I think it’s time for us to wrap it up. Uh, let’s move on to artists of the week.

Okay. This is a good one. So yeah, the artists of the week this week is from Ali Cobby Ekeman’s, uh, collection inside my mother. And it’s this published by Giramondo. I picked this up at, um, one of the bookshops on King street, the like nice one. I can’t remember what it’s called.

In her memoir, too afraid to cry published in 2013, indigenous poet, Ali Cobby Ekeman related how she had been tricked away from her mother as a baby, repeating the trauma her mother had suffered when she was taken from her grandmother many years before. Ekeman in turn had to give her own child up for adoption. In her new poetry collection, Inside My Mother, she explores the distance between the generations

created by such experiences. Cool. Um, yeah. And I fucking love this collection. Like I just kind of picked it up on a whim like many years ago. And like, like, you know, the thing that I love about the like poetry is like, you just have these books and they’re just like with you and you can just kind of go back. Like I haven’t read this.

I was just saying there’s like 20 poems, like dog-eared. And it’s like a nice memory of like the way I connected with this stuff, like over the last, I don’t know how many years.

Love, 22nd of the 6th, 10. I want to climb inside you. Transfuse your heart blood to mine. Of course that cannot happen. We can link in other ways. When your hands search for mine at nighttime. Inside your arms there is peace. A timelessness I have not known.

Were we lovers in the dream time? Hmm. Wow. So cool. Such a cool poem. Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful. It’s so musical. 20 words. Like, fuck you. Yeah. Damn. We don’t really. Yeah. We haven’t really talked that much about poet. Like we’ve sort of, we’ve shouted out a couple of poets on this show, but we don’t

really talk much about poetry, but I think there is a good reason that we like, you know, we wanted to cut like in our bio, it’s like art and poetry. Right. And yeah, I think it’s like this poem is a cool example of just like a small, more like tightly wound artwork that just can do so much, you know, to you.

It’s so portable, but like so powerful. I love it. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There’s so much going on and like, it would be great to do a poetry episode, but yeah, such a personal art form. And so like, it was just, yeah, I don’t know. I fucking love it. And I just think this, it’s such a direct communication with an idea and like a history and a person.

And I can’t imagine like many other ways that I could have like, I don’t know, felt that reality of her experience. You know, like I don’t really have any like indigenous friends, like one kind of, but, you know, to be able to kind of access and feel that stuff feels very powerful.

And like, I don’t know, it’s just such a lucky thing to be able to enjoy. Why don’t we end on this James Baldwin quote that you showed me? Yeah, sick. Let’s do it. I think in a country like ours, in a time like this, when something awful is happening

to a civilization, when it ceases to produce poets and what is even more crucial when it ceases in any way, whatever to believe in the report that only poets can make.

Did I do a good job of that? Yeah, that was nice. Great. All right. Well, I will talk to you later, dude. Yeah, that was lovely, man. I will speak to you soon. Yeah. Okay, bye. Bye.

Oh, and if you listen to us on iTunes, on the Apple podcast store, a review would be incredibly helpful to us. Even if you only give us four stars, which is way fewer than we deserve. But yeah, it’s a great way to help.

Anyway, we’re on Instagram at hungup.au. See you later.

Bye. Thank you.

Show notes

This week we cancel artists with rich parents 🙅‍♀️💰😳 Nah, but really we get into matters surrounding privilege, the inner west, the question “what school did you go to?” We try to tease out money and privilege with reference to a white pube article. Catch us on IG at @hungup.au If you want to support the show, the best way is to leave a review on Apple Podcasts : ) Artist of the week this week is Ali Cobby Eckermann and we read a poem from her collection Inside My Mother https://giramondopublishing.com/authors/ali-cobby-eckermann/ Cheers! Matt and Aiden