2.1 Baby Citizens

Transcript

So, I have finally gotten around to this project that a few people have told me that I would never actually be able to even start, let alone complete. Which is, I have saved

every vape that I’ve ever bought, as far as I know, with the intention of getting the batteries out of them so I can actually chuck them out properly. And yeah, I pulled a vape battery out, took about two minutes, I reckon I can get down to like 30 seconds per vape, smash them all out, and then recycle my shit properly. Which feels just like the equivalent of putting your cigarette butt

in a bin instead of chucking it at the road. Which feels pretty good, don’t get me wrong, but throwing a vape at the road feels like just a thousand times worse. Yeah, it’s true. So like the woman I buy my vapes off, she’s actually gotten super sus on throwing the packaging out. What? Oh, you’re like, can you chuck this out for me? Well, she insists. So someone like,

you know, I took you there, it’s that fucking cool dusty ass, like, you know, the one where they live in the back, like the husband and wife. Yeah. And someone chucked like their vape fucking box on the ground. Yeah. And like, someone got like a complaint. I think she got like a visit from the cops. So now she like keeps the vapes in the back. And when you buy a vape off her, she takes the box, you know, unwraps it for you and gives you just the bustle.

Wow. Cool. Yeah. I mean, these things are like, like become, so like someone went out to the country recently and said that they tried to buy a vape and the guy like fucking told them off. Oh yeah. It was like, vapes are illegal, dude. Like. It’s true. Yeah. It’s true. I tried to buy a fucking vape in Mullumbimby and you know what I had to do? I had to fucking get my like young cousin’s mate, Kale, to like source them illegally. Kale.

That’s ridiculous. And then I accidentally created a rift in their relationship because like Kale like wanted to hang out with my cousin. And then like, he felt like he was just being used for his vapes. True. Yeah. It was really more behind the scenes, pulling all the strings. That’s pretty funny. No, they are hard to get, man. I fucking went like, you know, far and wide in Mullumbimby

would be looking for one. Yeah. It’s a no go. I had to buy a pack of cigarettes. Yeah. Fuck. There you go. There you fucking go. That’s what I’m afraid of happening. Yeah, that sucks. All right. Let’s move along to the first like item on the agenda, which is we have found this Sydney Morning Herald article about,

like art. And I guess maybe we want to keep coming back to articles in the future. But the headline of this one is kind of perfect for us. It says, would you pay $23,000 for an invisible piece of art? Yes. By Caroline Zelinski. Again, it says here, news last week that an Italian artist sold an air quotes immaterial sculpture,

one that doesn’t physically exist for 15,000 euros, caused a very real stir. In an artist statement, 67 year old Salvatore Garau said of his sculpture titled I Am that, quote, vacuum is nothing more than a space full of energy. And even if we empty it and there is nothing left,

according to the Heisenberg uncertainty principle, that nothing has a weight. Therefore, it has energy that is condensed and transformed into particles. That is, into us. Okay. Make of that what you will. That was a hard paragraph to read anyway. I reckon he wrote that down. He didn’t just say it out loud.

I reckon that guy could have just said that. Yeah, look at him. A very stern Italian artist in like a nice, gross suit. True, true. And he’s standing in front of what looks like a massive, gray abex. It’s an enormous canvas. Yeah, yeah. He looks like very much like, I am a fucking, it’s what you think of. True, true. It’s like artist, European artist class. Very serious European artist.

Fucking 55 years old. Totally, yeah. It goes on, to the average person, to the average person, to the normal civilians, a sculptor, to the civvies, a sculpture made of air may sound ludicrous, yet to the artistic community, and especially within the contemporary art scene, the notion of air and its all-encompassing

yet immaterial nature has long held a fascination. Okay, it’s a ridiculous paragraph. It’s completely like stupid. Yeah. But, like, I want to be and am in that second camp. Yeah. You know what I mean? Me too. I think it is. Like, I, I, unfortunately, I agree. I, I, like, I mean, I’ve long ago decided that, like, if anyone asks me whether something is

art or music or not, I pretty much, like, I’ve kind of just painted myself into a corner where I have to admit that it is. Yes. And, like, yeah, I agree. This is art. And, like, yeah, sure. We can get into the value in a sec. But, like, I wanted to talk, I kind of think we’re, like, we’re sort of bringing this stuff up as a way to talk about how art is reported on as well. Like, and, like, yeah, it’s definitely got, like, some sort of sniffs of, like, it’s a little

bit of a smell of, like, you know, like, these kind of strata of, like, qualifications. Mm-hmm. Like, who’s an artist? Who’s allowed to think this is art? Yeah. Like, who’s going to get pissed off, like, you know, about this being a thing? It’s funny, though, right? Because, like, if the, someone who wasn’t interested in art, like, to use the language of this article, an average person.

Mm-hmm. So, like, I think it’s funny in the way that it’s, like, really divisive. It’s, like, to the average person and then people that like contemporary art, like, on two sides of this divide. Mm-hmm. Like, the punter reading this that thinks, and this headline is definitely meant to get those people to read this article. Absolutely, yeah. Like, it’s meant to outrage you.

True. Um… This is written for the average person, not the, uh… Exactly. Especially within the contemporary arts. Yeah, and I think that the average person or whatever reading this, the person that thinks it’s dumb to whatever, the idea that you could sell nothing for 20 grand, um, would feel quite, like, vindicated by this article.

Or, like, they would want to be the average person in this article. Yeah, I suppose so. Yeah, sure. That’s kind of interesting. They could, like, the two different communities could totally read it and get the, bring home their own goals from it. Yeah, that’s what I was thinking. Yeah. Like, oh, yeah, fucking’s got a goal on those fucking normies. Exactly. You share it. Yeah. Like, look how dumb this is. Yeah. And then the artists are like, look, we’re not the average person.

Isn’t that cool? Yeah. Yeah. Um, the concept of buying and selling air, she points out, is also part of Australia’s national identity. We sell our clean air to tourists and progressive prospective migrants. It’s, uh, quote, people will migrate with their whole family and give the quality of the atmosphere as the reason for leaving their homes.

Yeah. That’s bullshit, dude. Who says that? No one says that. No, well, they weren’t, like, well, like, in a sense, right? If you’re coming from fucking, um. Oh, they’re like, you come from, like, Syria or whatever, like. What’s the fucking one in China that’s super smoggy? Um, Beijing. Yeah, is it? Like, mega smoggy? Oh, that is true. Yeah, right?

Yeah. I mean, I would at least buy it. Do you know what? Yeah. That’s what they’re selling on, like, maybe that doesn’t happen so much now, but, like, yeah, like those fucking Aussie Qantas ads. Yeah. That’s what it brought to mind. Okay, I take, I take some of that back. Like, that’s, that’s fine. Like, dude, it makes me think about that, like, the middle of the, the sort of big lockdown

that we had in Sydney. Yeah. Was, like, one of the things I noticed after a while was, like, how clean the air got. Sure. And it was, like, the only thing that I was willing to get, like, a bit, like, soppy about, talking about, like, the nature is healing aspect of the thing. Like, everything else I was, like, fucking sarcastic about. Like, you know, I was, like, like, you know, scared the boys out in the street.

I was, like, nature is healing, you know. True. And, like, parking officers come back, and I was, like, nature is healing. But, yeah, dude, the air really got me. I was, like, whoa. It’s, like, this King Street, it’s so quiet tonight. And, like, the air just smells like the forest. You know what I mean? I was, like, damn, what the fuck? Like, it felt like a proper, like, vintage trip. You know, like, I’m in 19 fucking 10 before engines were cool.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was one, like, very sort of interesting thing. It’s funny how, like, air quality is just this, like, you know, unless you live in Beijing, it’s kind of an invisible thing. But, yeah, you really do notice it. Yeah, I guess, like, what, maybe why you, like, saw this as bullshit, or maybe my take on that,

is that it feels like a bit of a far-fetched, like, piece of analysis. You’re, like, where is this coming from? Or, like, are we really, like, selling air like that? Like, you’re, like, that doesn’t really happen. Yes. But one of the things that’s, like, you know, just the fact that you recalled that memory and you went there, you know, this professor has, like, a take,

and it kind of prompted you to start thinking about, like, yourself and the world. Yeah. That is, like, the meat of conceptual art for people that love it. Yeah, yeah. You know, it’s almost like… Absolutely. It’s like you’re dealing in ideas, like… Yeah, yeah, for sure. Like, I’ve always loved that. Yeah. I’ve super loved this sense of, like, that only conceptual art can do.

Yeah. It gets to play outside of the rules of, like, material reality and just kind of, like, dance freely and be absurd. Yeah. And if you are, I don’t know, if you fucking lean that way and you like to get kind of flighty with your thoughts and your words… Yeah. …conceptual art has always, you know, given me a place to, I don’t know,

realize that in a bunch of different ways. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And that’s what she’s doing there. She’s like, okay, this fucking Italian artist made it a piece of art and now, like, what is that making me think about? And then from her context as, like, an Australian, I guess… Yeah. …she’s talking about, like, Australian identity or, like, you know…

Sure. …immigration. Yeah, sure. …which, you know, that’s, like, where she took it or whatever. And you could probably take it a thousand different ways. Yeah. But, like, the fact that, you know, this conversation, or she’s even potentially, like, you know, doing some kind of critique… Yeah. …but, um… Yeah. All right, jeez, you got me. I take it back. I’m sorry. No, well, like, you know, I think…

I’m being facetious. …that’s one of the fucking sexy things about conceptual art. Totally, yeah. That’s something that I think, like, we wanted to try and express with our first season of Hung Up without actually out and out saying it was, like, we would go to a room where there’s a bunch of, like,

let’s say, visual art on… Yeah. …and, yes, like, talk about it in a sort of review-y sense, although we have, like, off the mic, always, like, avoided the idea of reviews, which is kind of why we picked, like, something like a review to read on this. But, you know, what we’re trying to sort of say with our actions

in that first season was, like, see how, like, it’s… See all the possibilities that can come of this. Yes. And that’s just from these two guys, like, with their own, you know, ideas and, you know, like, backgrounds and obsessions and dislikes. Yeah. You know, that’s just with us, like, you know, everything else, like…

Or anyone else that visits, like, will bring even more or, you know, something else to it. I think there’s something, like, before you were talking about, you know, you’ve gotten quite, like, liberal with your… If someone asks you, like, is this art, is this music? Mm-hmm. And, like, the first guy that sprung to my mind was, like, John Cage. Yeah.

Totally. Of course. Yeah. And I had, like, a nice, like, Cage-in moment the other day. Absolutely, like, a cliche. Like, it’s, like, the fucking… I live by the train station. Yeah. And, like, trains are going by all the time. Mm-hmm. I know what I was doing. I think I was just, like, sitting on the bench outside in the morning before work. Yeah. And just, like, doing nothing. Mm-hmm. Drinking a coffee or whatever.

Mm-hmm. And, you know, I was kind of attending to the sounds of the world. Mm-hmm. Which is, like, you know, Cage’s bread and butter. Cool. It’s, like, you know, music never stops kind of thing. Sure. Kind of composing in my own mind for a moment. Mm-hmm. And I thought, like, his writing or, like, his idea, which is tied to this dude’s fucking work,

like, selling air or selling nothing or selling something out of nothing, had, like, basically given me the tools, like, by conceptualizing my reality in that way, had given me, like, this tool set to, in a real sense, like, not in a sense that the average person would comprehend.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, like, to basically be a composer of the world in that moment with, like, my brain as the fucking, I don’t know, like, both the, what do you call it? Both, like, the instrument and the, yeah, yeah, like, receiver. Yeah. Or, like, perceiver. Yeah, you were the, it’s, yeah, in that sense, you could say you were the composer and the

audience. Yeah. And, like, and also, like, in a sense, the instrument too. That’s cool. Yeah. I mean, like, yeah, I obviously, like, completely agree. Like, I. Well, just to finish, sorry, on that point, when you were talking about, like, the season of Hung Up that we just did, it was almost all taking place in material reality. Yes.

We were responding to, like, paintings or, like, more traditional art. Yeah. And just to give, like, another, like, I don’t know, a tick of approval to this work that we’re kind of talking about. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it’s, it’s unlimited in the sense of, like, you know, this fucking entire city

is my, like, conceptual canvas with no limits. Cool. No art gallery limits. Yeah. No canvas limits. Sure. It’s, it’s, like, endless. Yeah. It’s, like, everything. Yeah. That’s, that’s a, it’s a, like, a beautiful, like, and sort of, like, let’s say, like, I mean, it’s, it’s not, you know, I think, like, we’ve been exposed to these ideas, like,

in a very, like, fertile sort of, like, part of our youth maybe, or, like, maybe we, we were, like, a little bit predisposed to this, like, but I don’t think that it’s something that only few people are, like, coded to be able to do. No way, dude. It’s, like, what we’re saying is, like, it’s, like, what I would say about people singing is, like, you know, if you, if you have the right teacher, like, anyone can learn to

sing well, you know. Yes. Just with enough practice, like. For sure. Yeah, for sure. Like, I, I feel the same thing, and we, you know, we talk a lot about this idea. That was, that was John Cage’s big, like, famous, like, one hit. Like, that was his top. Yeah. Fucking hit. Yes. In the art world.

Yes. Let’s, let’s also, like, mention that he was a composer, too, and, like, did make, you know, he wrote music, like, too, and, like, he had some interesting pieces, like, too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which, which do investigate interesting things, like, with, with a musician, but yeah, that, that, that one piece, the silent work, he called it, or the silent piece was a, an absolute,

like, a breakout, not only in the, like, what sort of settled on the, like, the sort of music philosophy scene, but also, like, the greater art scene, like, since then. At the time, it was, like, like, totally scandalous, but yeah, like, it’s, um, um, it’s, like, sort of settled out to be this, like, really important thing, like, you know, maybe just

for you and I, but, like, not even just for you and I, like, like, you know, art scene I feel like every fucking person with an arts degree. Yeah. Anyone with, anyone with any fucking sense in the art world, you better, like, don’t it, or else I’m coming for you. Dude, I’ll jump out of your iPhone and fucking come for you. I’d be interested to see what the YouTube comments are on, like, one of his, you know, because he has, like, each, each performance is, like, a version, it’s, like, kind of an

artwork, it’s the, you know, he performs, like, 4.33, four minutes and 33 seconds of silence, and, you know, now you have, like, pretty, like, upper middle class, um, uh, like, audiences, like, in nice dresses and suits and shit, like, sitting there, listening to nothing, and then, like, applauding and fucking, you know, absolutely loving it.

That’s true, yeah, the YouTube comments, I think, are going to be, um, like, amazing to read. I need to, uh, plug this shit in, huh? Yeah, you do. All right, Aiden’s gonna get a fucking… Oh, dude, the second search result that comes up is explained. Yes, I love that. Four minutes, don’t you, explained.

And now, a performance of John Cage’s 4.33. Please welcome our soloist, William Marks.

Thank you. Thank you.

Oh, this guy does a stopwatch. Oh, yeah. It’s kind of a funny take. Seven million views. Yeah, the first ones are, like, uh, like, funny, like, I don’t always listen to John Cage, but when I do, neither do my neighbours. Uh, man, I can’t get this tune out of head, out of my head.

For days, what shall I do? I mean, yeah, like, it’s all a comedy. Is this the sound of sound? My tinnitus, bonjour.

Uh, no one is like, this is done yet? Yeah. Everyone likes it. Yeah, I think, I have this, I have this suspicion that, that YouTube comments get sorted up positive comments first. Like, because I have, like, stopped seeing negative comments on YouTube.

And I love checking out the, the comment section is, like, one of the last, like, like, at least it felt like one of those wild west places. Sure. You know, because you can fucking type anything in that box. Like, it takes, it actually takes a lot to get censored. True. Uh, or, like, your comment deleted or whatever. Like, you can report, I think, but fuck, I think all you can do right now is dislike.

So, yeah, I think if the comment, comments are, like, super negative, they just get, like, filtered out by the fucking machine. Yeah. All right. Nice piano. Yeah, it’s a fucking hundred thousand dollar piano. You know, you see, in this performance of it, the whole crowd is, like, so on board. Yes. They’re, like, they’re, like, thank, what a banger.

Fuck yeah. Yes. But they’re all sitting, like, perfectly silent. Like, they’re all competing to be quiet, which is kind of funny. I mean, I believe that the, the, the piece is still, like, John Cage’s piece is still playing out in this performance. Like, don’t get me wrong. No, I, a hundred percent. And there’s kind of a suggestion and it’s, like, part of the complexity and what’s interesting about this work.

Yeah. Is that it becomes, like, the sound of the room, right? Yep. And some people say that, like, it’s just two brackets around what I was talking about earlier, sitting on my bench and, like, composing the world. Yeah. It’s kind of, like, if I set a four minute 33 timer, I am doing this piece and every version of that piece is kind of a unique instance of it.

Yeah. Based on where you are and, like, who you’re with. Sure. It just has no intentional, like, music in it for that time. Well, yeah. Yeah. I guess. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Like, the sheet music is just… It was sort of, it was sort of asking us also to believe that, like, something about intentionality, like, the brackets, like, are the music. Yes.

Like, yeah. Like, that is music, you know.

So, like, this performer is really loving the, the stopwatch aspect of it. Like, I believe in the original one, they, like, I mean, they definitely didn’t have beeps on their stopwatches. So, you would have just looked at a wristwatch, you know.

It’s so stupid. They’re all app students. Yeah. It’s so stupid. They’re all hung up listeners.

There’s something about this, though, that I want to think. Like, the like ratio is pretty good. It’s like 66,000 to 11,000. Yeah. So, it’s not, it’s like a piece of potentially very, like, annoying performance art that has somehow, like, hit a positive nerve with the culture. Yeah. Yeah, true. Where they kind of get it. True.

And appreciate it in this weird way. Yeah, true. Annoying performance art is such a good category. Yeah. Yeah. That’s like a whole category. That’s like all of performance art, more or less. Well, yeah. It’s mostly really boring. I don’t know. I’ve seen some fun ones. It’s mostly deeply boring. It’s, it’s, it’s a lot of, so much of it has to do with, like, a patient audience.

Like, you know what I mean? Like, like, even this one, you couldn’t take your fucking screaming kid to that show. Like, it would, like, in quotes, ruin the work. Like, dude, like, the fucking, like, doesn’t matter what John Cage thinks. It’s like the smartest, coolest, fucking, hippest composer ever. Like, there’s a fucking, like, what, like, I don’t know how old they get when they’re screaming,

but, like, let’s say a six-year-old who’s, like, having a fucking meltdown. You, like, have ruined the composition. True. Not now, Jaden. Not now, Jaden. Someone took their kid to, like, event cinemas, Burwood. Yeah. So, like, they left a review. And someone else was like, why the fuck did they let kids in? They ruined my movie.

I want a refund. Like, I guess that’s fair enough. There’s, like, babes in arms shows, like, for that reason. Yeah, sure. You’re not meant to bring a baby to the movies. Yeah, right. I agree. You can’t just do that. It’s like they ask us to put our phones off so that they won’t ring. And, like, a child is so much more disruptive. Do you think there’s, like, some part of…

Grotch spawn. Is there some, like, woke, like, breastfeeding part of the… Like, you breastfeed everywhere community that, like, thinks that babies should be allowed in cinemas? Or is that, like, a universal… Yeah, I definitely sense, like, a kind of, like… Like, a doofy subculture. Babies are citizens. Babies are citizens. Kind of.

Yeah, I definitely think there’s a contingent, like… Yeah. Especially, like, north, like, coast. You know? Like, just keep heading north in the car. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. We’re really fucking… We’re not pulling any punches on this new season. Guys. Like, just fucking watch yourself. Babies. If you’re a fucking problematic artist, we’re coming for you.

If you’re a baby listening to this… If you’re a baby listening to this… Shut the fuck up. You’re fucking dumb, dude.

That’s so dumb. That was, like… That was, like, fucking cute little baby at the Vietnamese restaurant I went to for hours. Like, behind the counter. Yeah. And it was kind of sad. She had, like, her little iPhone, or, like, her normal-sized iPhone, her mom’s iPhone, like, propped up. So, like, big, extra-sized. Big, yeah. Massive iPhone. And then her hand was just, like, digging into this, like, really cute, like, Barbie pencil case.

Yeah. Like, just endlessly. Ah, fidgeting. Just, like… Well, it wasn’t a fidget. It was a very, like… It was, like, a comfort paw. It was, like, a cat. Yeah. You know? Like, we’re like this. Yeah. And then she would just kind of look at us with this, like, yeah, deep, intense… Wow. I don’t know. I mean, it’s kind of sad. Yeah. Weird. Yeah. Kids… Look.

Sometimes kids are okay. I have to admit. I think kids are beautiful. There’s this… I mean, yeah. Like, I’m sort of playing crotchety, if you don’t mind. Sure. There is this kid that, like… I think his, like, parents, like, run the hairdresser shop at the corner of my street. Yeah. And, like, he’s got, like, a day in there every week where he’s just, like, in the window.

Like, they’ve got a little bench set up for him. Like, you know, child-sized bench. Sure. And he’s just on his iPad. And then there’s, like, you know, colored crayons and, like, pens, like, strewn around the bench. And he’s, like, fucking stoked to be there. Yeah. And then he’s kind of, like, also, like… You know, he’s sort of absorbing this, like, screen very intently. But then, like, totally ignorant to the world passing by.

And then you can literally stop and look at him. And, like, he won’t even look up at you. But he’s, like, a picture in his own right. You know? Yeah, yeah. That’s cool. It’s this funny little moment that just keeps recurring on my street. Yeah. I was thinking about, like, this kid in the shop. Like, when, I guess, the parents don’t have a sitter. And you’ve got to go to the business. And that’s how you spend your Sunday, like, in the fucking Vietnamese restaurant or whatever.

But, like, I was thinking of, like, yeah, I mean, I guess I felt bad for that kid, you know? Like, you shouldn’t be here on the weekend. But, you know, it is capitalism or whatever. Yeah. The kid’s mum and dad, like, run the shop. Yeah, exactly. Now I get it. And the kid, that’s, like, they’re getting babysat behind the counter. Yeah, sure. It’s a family business thing. Yeah. And I was thinking about, like, I don’t know, kids in the culture.

And, like, you know, does she have a bad, like, she’s watching TV. Yeah. And then, like, you don’t have to go back too far where, like, yeah, kids were fucking working. Yeah. Like, not quite at that age. She was, like, four. But at, like, ten. Yeah. I think, like, that line between living in the shop and working, like, has sort of moved in one direction since, like, especially in the West, anyway. Like, you know, these kind of economically developed countries.

Like, I’m thinking about, like, you know, even, like, Jamie Oliver. He was, like, I’m 14 and I work in the pub. Yeah, sure. Yeah, true. And then, like, you know, someone, like, a little bit older than him, like, my mom and dad’s age, they would have, like, definitely had to hang out at the shop. Yes. You know, like. True. Or, I mean, there was also this thing about, like, they were, like, just get out of the

fucking house. Like, I’m tired of looking at your face. Like, go and play on the railroad tracks kind of thing. You know, like. Yeah, totally. You know, that was something that parents today, like, just would not do. Yeah. I mean, how do you feel about the, like, the baby iPad thing? Like, are we doomed? When I look at them, I feel a little bit of a sense of doom. Like, the attention span thing is going to be, like, probably kill us before global warming

ever could. Yeah, maybe. That’s what I think. Yeah, yeah. What do you think? Well, it’s funny because there’s, like, when the image in my mind is how I saw a, like, two-year-old in a stroller with, like, a clipped-on, like, iPhone playing videos whilst it was, like, walking around. And that feels a little bit like fucking putting Coke in the baby bottle. Yeah. That seems a little bit crazy.

Yeah. To me. But, I don’t know, it’s kind of an interesting idea, like, it’s going around now of, like, yeah, attention and, like, ADD, like, attentional deficit stuff. And the way, I don’t know, like, how much the brain has changed, like, or how much it can change in response to, like, you know, even me, who’s, like, relatively focused.

Like, probably I was, like, thinking about if you had a camera on me whilst I work or whatever, how many, like, unconscious or, like, subconscious, like, phone pickups and tab switches I would be doing. Yeah. And I’m sure it’s fucking loads. Sure. And I guess for some of us it’s, like, even more. Yeah. But I wonder whether it’s a problem, like, that our attention, like, we can’t focus for a long time.

Or in, like, another way of taking it, like, maybe we are trying to, like, this is the new way of, like, being in the world. Like, we do, like, these little bursts of attention. Yeah. And, like, one, like, slight detour, it’s not as bad as people like to think. Because, like, you know, people do say, oh, I went to the pub where I went to dinner and

people were on their phone all the time. Or, like, even on the train. I see plenty of people, like, not on their phone. Like, at a restaurant. Like, this is a Vietnamese restaurant today and, like, no one was on their phone. Yeah. It’s, like, a big family, like, a dude by himself, a couple, us. No one had their phone. Like, so people can totally do it. Yeah. But I wonder whether, like, some of the things that are coming up is, like, school and work are boring.

And the way that they are structured is not, you know, about what would be the best for the person. That’s interesting. Or even the best for the human’s brain. Yeah. It’s just, like, some old fucking, like, Ford shit about, like, a working week. Yes. Totally. And, like, maybe my sister, like, is, like, talking about having ADD because, you know, school is fucking boring and stupid.

And maybe the same for what? That’s actually a cool way of sort of looking at it. You know what I mean? Is that, like, this, like, attention span as, like, a natural capability of humans. Yeah. And, like, also kind of, like, a resource that can be, like, you know, expended and, like, depleted sometimes. Yeah. Cool. Like, I think we should, like, that is a cooler question to be asking ourselves is, like, you know, fucking.

Like, okay, I’m a fucking unemployed guitarist, but I’m saying, like, you know, couldn’t we restructure industries to, like, have, like, you know, that in mind? Yeah, sure. I mean, yeah, I don’t know. Like, I used to definitely be of the opinion that, like, no, we should, like, you know, like, we should do away with our fucking attention sucking devices and stuff.

And, like, okay, right now I’m having, like, a really fun, like, like, like, relationship slash dislike with my laptop where I, like, obsessed about YouTube, like, niche things and stuff. And then, like, I love it. And it’s, like, a beautiful, like, some kind of anti-cinema that I’m, like, fucking really relishing.

But then on the other hand, I’m, like, fuck, it’s been five hours and all I’ve done is, like, watch two different, like, engine part rebuilds, you know? So, yeah, I’m sort of struggling with that. But, like, I guess what I’m saying is that, like, my opinion is not very black and white anymore about, like, what to do about attention span stuff. Sure, yeah.

No, no, for sure. And then, like, on the other side, it’s, like, yeah, maybe our fucking, the way our attention is isn’t all bad. Sure. And then maybe the other part of it is, like, yeah, I think we should probably do some intentional work on our focus. Like, if people are, like, I can’t concentrate, I have ADD. I wonder, it’s, like, is concentration a skill?

Yes, it is. I think people would say it’s a skill. Yeah. And there’s this dude, Cal, Cal Newport, who writes about all this shit. He’s, like, a big guy in that fucking, he’s got a thing about deep work. And his deep work is, like, basically going into a forest and, like, thinking for hours at a time. Cool. But I’m, like, how many people have done that ever? My mate does that. Yeah. Like, someone does that.

My mate does that, like, every now and then. Yeah. That’s pretty cool. Yeah, it’s fucking cool. That’s really cool. But, like, yeah, as, like, that’s probably, like, you know, one in a hundred or one in a thousand, right? That do that with any regularity. Like, train their focusing skill. Sure, yeah. Maybe you get it, like, accidentally by working or something. You’re forced to focus for long periods. Yeah, yeah.

That’s, I mean, there you go. We’ve kind of, like, justified both, like, killing and also, like, remaining in work. Yes. Yeah.

Let’s move along. Sure. What’s this? I just bought art. Yeah. You bought something. Yeah, I bought something. Yeah, let’s review the hung up permanent collection today. Sure, yeah. So, the first thing that came into our possession was a really lovely little fried egg guy from EJ Son’s, like, really fun and, like, fucking cool work that we saw at Pari a little while ago.

It was one of our early episodes, I think. And, yeah, EJ, like, fucking, like, came to, I think it was one of my events, to Concrete Dreams with, like, yeah, one of the works that we really liked. So, I was, actually, didn’t really get to do a shout out, but, like, thanks, EJ, for that. And then, more recently, we went to Albemarle Street.

I think it was 26 Albemarle in Newtown, a cool little gallery there to see the Myanmar exhibition. And what did you get? I got this print by Richie Tett. It’s called Bitch Better Have My Democracy. Yeah. And your roommate framed it really nicely for me. And it’s hanging up. We can see it right now. Yeah.

Shout out to roommate Sam. Yeah. And I think it’s really cool. It’s, like, you know, aside from the print, it’s, like, I think not that many of us buy art. Yeah. Like, whatever. It’s not, like, a big part of the culture to, like, buy art. Like, everyone has it. But, like, I’ve always said, like, when you get to have, like, a piece with you, like, in your home, like, it gets to do all these, like, beautiful kind of, like, massaging and, like, working on you.

Yeah. Totally. Yeah. That is just impossible in a gallery. Totally. Yeah. It’s really got, like, a lifetime in a house. Yeah. Like, I was, this is sort of related. Like, I was watching something about, like, handmade pianos. And, you know, some of those, like, the piano that that guy, quote, played the John Cage piece on.

Like, that’s, like, a fucking, like, I don’t know, like, $100,000, $200,000 thing. Yeah. Yeah. And one of these, like, pro piano makers was saying on YouTube, like, the first half of a piano’s life is so much more valuable than the second half of its life. And, like, that just gave me this really cool, like, immediate flash of insight to, like, just how the materials, like, bear the sort of, like, normal wear of time.

But also, like, how long, like, you know, I don’t really care that much about it. But, like, the piano is really, like, a work of art if it’s made by a single person, you know, or a little small team. It’s, like, this really beautiful, unique object. And just, like, thinking about these things in terms of, like, decades and, like, lifetimes is really interesting. Because one thing that we don’t really talk about, well, we haven’t really touched on that much in this show anyway.

I don’t really know if this is part of the general discourse. But, like, how, like, most of the objects that you can make art out of are, like, sort of as a default, like, quite permanent. You know, like, you print your photos on stuff called archival paper, which is supposed to, like, you know, it’ll, like, sit in your fucking room and have the same colors, like, 30 years later if you, like, look after it.

And, like, you know, there’s obviously works about impermanence. You know, there’s, like, heaps of stuff with that. But we don’t really sort of talk that much about, you know, like, for example, like, this fucking laptop on my lap. Like, it’s not, you know, we wouldn’t say it was, like, an artist made it. But, you know, like, dude, this fucking thing will be exactly the same shape 10,000 years from now.

Like, maybe the battery will blow up. But you just keep it in a box. It’s good forever. Like, you know, all these things are so permanent. And I think, like, it’s just so fun to have, like, the physical, like, you know, play of this thing in your house, in your life, like, all the time. For sure. I got it. I actually, I guess this counts as the permanent collection, too.

I bought a photograph from Zani. His name’s Zani on Instagram. Yeah. And he’s also, like, a fucking mad producer. That was the first sort of hat I saw him wear. Yeah. He had some photos, like, really fucking cool street photography at an art show at Mothership. And, yeah, I’ve got one of those photos now on the staircase.

And every time I come down the stairs, I’m surprised by it. You know, like, every single time I’m like, oh, yeah, I fucking got that. It’s so cool. And, yeah, I think, like, for one thing, like, you know, it’s so hard as young people to find the budget to, like, do this stuff. But, wow, like, dude, it’s, like, it’s so, so, like, worth. What would that be?

Two pouches or something? Yeah, yeah. And now I’ve already gotten, like, 40 pouches worth of enjoyment out of it. I don’t know how you could weigh those two things up on a scale. But, yeah, like, you see what I’m saying, I think. Oh, for sure. Yeah, I mean, there’s a bunch of, like, there’s so many powerful ways this can go. And, like, this kind of artwork that I’m talking about, the Richie Tet one, is this kind of, it’s a really, like, I don’t know, it’s a very kind of powerful.

It’s this warring image of, like, a goddess figure kind of, like, stamping on and about to stab this kind of, like, ghoulish, froggy, like. Like, despotic. Yeah. Tyrant. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So it’s, like, quite a political image. And I guess, like, in some ways it’s maybe, like, a confronting image. But it’s making me think about, like, I don’t know, like, your interior design and the objects you have.

And, like, you know, one thing that happens to me whenever I go to an art gallery is, like, you’re doing something, which is you’re attending maybe more closely to form than you would, you know, in your everyday life. Sure. When you’re on the train or whatever. That’s true. Yeah. And so, like, by bringing this kind of thing that is decorative but is also, like, conceptual and political and, you know, it’s tied to its own meanings for you.

That image is tied to a person which is kind of tied to, like, a certain part of your life or, you know, and same for me with this image. And, you know, this one is tied to this kind of country that’s currently going through conflict. And so it kind of, like, I don’t know, suffuses, like, the table that I work at with this sort of, I don’t know, like, kind of, I don’t know.

It makes you kind of, like, forcibly aware of certain things. And, I don’t know, it’s a very powerful thing. And, like, if you, to me, like, if you, when I’m at my best, like, it’s not always, like, of course, your house becomes messy and it gets filled with things that aren’t very powerful to you. But, in a way, this, like, space that you spend, like, most of your time in, like, the things that you choose to put on the wall is, at least conceptually, like, a very powerful and important decision.

It’s, like, the same as, like, what you put in the fridge or, like, the fucking light you have or the shoes or whatever. Yeah. There’s a whole kind of, like, world here of, like, you know, what the home means. And, there’s this kind of classic refrain that, like, you know, someone will say is, at an art gallery, was, like, you know, I would have that at home or I wouldn’t have that at home.

And, that’s, like, one of the great, like, binary kind of, like, safe conclusions that people feel comfortable making in an art gallery. So true. Yeah. Would you buy this if you had the money? Yeah, exactly. Would you buy this with your money? Yeah, totally. Very cool. Yeah, would you buy it if you had the money? Like, that’s, like, a value question. Yeah. And, like, would you bring it in your space and live with it?

Yeah. And, I guess… That’s such an interesting divide. Yeah, I guess. Yeah. And, one of the interesting things about, like, that image that I have, which is kind of a, you know, it’s got this glaring red and it’s got all these kind of, like, in-your-face politics, I suppose. Yeah, yeah. It’s this funny thing about, like, there’s an art in a gallery that is more or less, like, you know, safely consumable.

Like, let’s even think about scale. Like, you’ve got some massive abstract works on your wall. Yeah, sure, yeah. And most people are just, like, that would be too confrontational or it would be impractical. Yeah. And then, you know, I’ve heard of artists, like, as they, you know, they’re like, oh, I make these, like, small paintings. And, you know, one of the benefits of making small paintings is, like, they’re easy to ship. They’re easy to hang.

Easy to sell. Easy to sell. There was a big show on recently in Sydney that was, like, all these artists, I forget what it’s called, but they just all, like, made postcard-sized paintings. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Paintings or whatever. And they’re all $100. Was that through First Draft? No, I don’t think it was through First Draft. It was some other thing. Like, some kind of mail-in thing at the moment. That sounds cool.

But, yeah, I mean, I was kind of turned off by the idea of the postcard-sized images. Okay. I, like, thumbed through, like, a couple hundred of them, like, on the website. And none of them looked that good. Uh-huh. For starters. Uh-huh. Cool. Like, none of them jumped out at me. Yeah. But then I think there was something about the scale that felt, like, to me, like, even if it was a hundred bucks and I got, like, some sick Aussie artist.

Yeah. It would, I thought it would, like, just look like a postcard. Uh-huh. You know, like, the postcards you get at the end of the gallery for, like, two bucks? Yeah, sure. Yeah. I was like, it won’t be an artwork because it’s, like, whereas if I was at a gallery and I saw a postcard-sized, like, one work that happened to be postcard-sized, to me, that could potentially be worth it. But this idea that there was, like, all these artists that had been made to conform to this postcard style.

Or maybe it was just that there were so many. There was literally, like, a thousand of them. Yeah. The value had somehow been sapped. Yeah. Away from me. Yeah. Like, I was like, no, I’m not going to spend a hundred bucks on this. Yeah. Seems dumb. Yeah. I don’t know why. Interesting. So, I’ve got these two, like, big, I would say, for share house standards, big works. Fucking massive. By my friend, Matthew Gorgula, in my house.

And it’s, like, you know, these two, like, I’ve been meaning to measure them just to know. Yeah. It’s like the size of a fucking wall. Yeah. It’s, like, they’re probably, like, 1.8 to, like, two and something meters, like, square each. They’re big motherfuckers. You’ve got to get, like, you can’t fit them in a normal car kind of thing. Yes. And, yeah, he did a really, like, cool install of them.

And they’re just there now. Like, please let me keep the mat, Jesus. Yes. And I love them. They’re, like, there’s nothing else that I could have done with those walls, really. Like, I’ve been saying, they’re flat. But vertical surfaces, like, I’m, like, hey, guys, I’m going to do some serious art theory for you now. It’s, like, walls are flat and vertical. Yeah. I’m teasing myself.

But, like, anyway, I think, like, it’s been a really fun work to live with. They’re big, but they’re also very simple compositions. But, like, in their detail of, like, the construction material, whatever you would call it, like, what the canvas is, is also, like, very detailed.

And it’s, like, in that it’s got different panels. And, like, some panels are the same sort of paint, but they’re different materials between them. And, like, some, like, panels join up to the border of where the paint is. And, like, it’s a really clever work. And it’s had such a good life, I think, in this house. Yes. For sure.

You know, it’s, like, not one person has come in and, like, rolled their eyes at it, for one. I was going to ask that. Whatever that means. Because in a sense, like, yes, because these are, like, black and white, very minimal, like, almost, like, geometric paintings. And, like, just to say something about the scale, comparing them to the postcards, there’s, like, a certain, like, innate value to big things.

You know, like, all those fucking abstract expressionist guys doing the massive things. People tend to revere them more. Or, like, in the ag, there’s those classical, massive battlescapes. And they’re framed with these, like, brilliant, ornate, like, brass and gold frames. And there’s something very simple for a human, you know, in terms of, like, size and value.

It’s, like, the giant chicken schnitzel. Yeah. It’s 20 bucks. So I get this much chicken, like. From Marrickville Road, is that what you’re talking to? I don’t know. Just from fucking wherever. But, like, there’s a very, like, simple human, like, size good thing. Yeah. Sure. You know what I mean? But then, like, that aside, which I think is an interesting piece of it, he’s also doing, like, the opposite of the small paint.

Like, you’re saying these things are hard to move and probably very hard to sell. Yeah. And, like, expensive to make just because there’s more of it. Or maybe not so expensive, but, like, if they were just a pure canvas, like, making. So, like, you know, there’s interesting, like, just economic constraints on artists. Yeah. Which, you know, all these constraints are kind of in every work.

Yeah. Sure. You know, but I wanted to ask, like, when people come in, like, yeah, sure, they might not roll their eyes. But is, like, the way for you, the artwork, like, like, Millie saw that for the first time today. That painting, the Ritchie one. And was like, oh, shit, cool. Like, whatever. Yesterday. And, like, for me, it’s already starting to fade.

Like, you know, not in a bad way, but it’s kind of like, I’ve already, you know, I’m used to it. It will. It will fade. Yeah. It will fade. It’s part of its life. Yes, for sure. But is there anyone that, like, comes into your house and is kind of, like, startled by the scale or the intensity of those paintings? I mean, like, if they are, they tend to be artists.

I think, like, a lot of people see them and don’t really comment. And then, like, a lot of artists are like, that’s cool. Yes. And I think I’ve gotten the most pleasure out of them, like, in the way that they work with these spaces. Like, especially the one in the entrance. It’s like, I did hang up a mirror there recently, which is kind of a nice little, like, domestic, like, you know, you want to check yourself out.

Do I have, like, fucking rat poo in my hair before I go outside? Not that my house is ratty. Or whatever. But, like, it looks like, you know, it kind of looks like a gallery space. It’s like clean walls and stuff. The other one, like, you know, the funny thing about that house is, anyway, it’s like, to be fair to the architecture, it’s like, I mean, even to be fair to the architecture, it’s like a crap room for, like,

it’s a crap living room. Like, we’re sitting in your, like, living room here and it’s like, there’s, you know, there’s a sofa and there’s a place, there’s sort of a place to chill out. You can fit two more sofas in here if you wanted. Yes. But this one is like, you know, there’s not really much chilling space in there. It’s got, like, a through, a moving through the house. It’s almost like a hallway. Exactly. It’s like an ante room or something.

And I noticed the other funny thing, okay, this is becoming an architecture podcast real quick, but the other funny thing is it’s got three entrances, which is, like, so much of the wall space is used up for entrances. And one of them is a fucking big set of stairs that you can’t do fuck all with anyway. True, true, true. Yeah, it’s a really tough room for us. But that’s why I think, like, the hallway one is more fun because it’s, like, this, like, actual, like, sort of place of, like, flowing movement all the time.

Like, no one actually is going to hang out in the hallway unless I have a party, which is on the cards totally. But, yeah, like, that one, I really love how that work goes there. Yeah, I mean, yeah, it’s cool. And it’s really cool just to, like, loop back before we run out of time on this work that we kind of started this episode off with,

which is this, like, work of nothing. Yeah. And, like, you kind of already have that work if it’s just whatever amount of unbracketed air. You just don’t own it. You just don’t have the fucking… You didn’t pay fucking… What’s his name? Yeah, you don’t get to fucking tell… Gustavo doesn’t have your money.

Gustavo. And you don’t get to tell your dinner guests that you own it. Yeah. And, like, probably the only person that will buy that will be someone who wants to flex and be like, I spent 30K on nothing. Sure. Which is, like, a big part of that high-end art world. Yeah. Maybe let’s be generous and say someone that likes his other works and wants to support him. Yeah, that’d be cool. Yeah. That’d be cool. Yeah. But, yeah, it’s a really interesting just overall discussion, I think, of an overall exploration of these two, like, you know, all the way back to fucking I think they’re 4am, like, Descartes.

Like, this separation between mind and body or material and immaterial. Like, once we started talking about the material works that we have in love, we started to have to come back down to earth. Like, we had to start thinking about, like, you know, the limitations of our space and, like, size. But when we were talking about the conceptual work, we were kind of freed from our bodily reality.

Sure, yeah. We were in the clouds. Yeah. The separation of post and story. Yes. True.

Cool. Well, I think that’s a good place to wrap it up, then. Let’s do it. We’re hungup.au on Instagram. My name’s Matt. Aiden. And, yeah, thanks for checking us out. Season two, baby. Season two. It’s going to be more like this, I think. I reckon. It’s going to be a bit more casual. Yeah. Some of it’s going to be on the sofa. Yeah. Always in blankets, because we’re going to be recording through winter.

Yeah. We’re swaddled in a nice, thick, what’s that? It’s, like, good for your back? What’s that kind of, like, an ergonomic, like, yoga blanket right now? Yeah, totally. Yeah. I think this is, it seems like a way more civilized way to do it. We’ve got a couple of teaming in this, too. Not enough people were giving us props for doing the work of going out with a microphone,

so we decided to, you know, fuck it up. Yeah, no more deals with the elements, man. Yeah. Thank you.

Thank you.

Show notes

In this first episode of season 2, Matt and Aiden try out a more relaxed format. Some of the topics and artists discussed: Vapes, air quality and the value of art, John Cage on youtube, Richie Htet, EJ Son, Matthew Gorgula, Zarni  Follow us on instagram at @hungup.au Links  SMH article: https://www.smh.com.au/culture/art-and-design/the-australian-artists-making-invisible-art-out-of-thin-air-20210607-p57yqf.html  Cage performance: https://youtu.be/JTEFKFiXSx4